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RE: Problems with missionaries - ImAHebrew - 08-12-2020
Shalom Jason, hasn't the contentions that I have brought up about the missionaries showed you something? The missionaries FOUNDATIONAL doctrine is "Jesus" dying in the stead and paying the penalty of their sins...sort of like how Israel took the meaning of slaughtering animals. Now, if HaShem comes along and allows a people who are not a people to understand the meaning of sacrifice, how would that not be different? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.
RE: Problems with missionaries - Jason - 08-14-2020
So, your doctrine is superior because it rejects the New Testament?
My thinking:
1. The New Testament says again and again and again that Jesus died for the sin of the world.
2. By rejecting the idea that Jesus died for sins, you are rejecting a principle teaching of the New Testament.
3. Rejecting the New Testament undermines the entire teaching about Jesus and who he was and what he did.
4. If you undermine the New Testament, there is no other basis on which to make claims about Jesus.
You cannot know if Jesus existed without the New Testament. You cannot know what Jesus said without the New Testament. You cannot know where Jesus went or who he went there with without the New Testament.
If you reject the New Testament, you are logically obligated to reject everything you know about Jesus and throw that garbage teaching into the bin. You're so close to the truth, yet so far away by holding on to an entire mythology developed around a teacher who most likely never even existed.
RE: Problems with missionaries - ImAHebrew - 08-15-2020
Shabbat Shalom Jason, thank you so much for letting me know your thinking. Let me first say that within Judaism, there has been many battles and debates over the millennia concerning what The Scriptures were actually saying. One such debate was the counting of the omer...which Shabbat did the counting start after. Even today there are different factions of Jews that disagree on whether it is the weekly Shabbat, or the High Day Shabbat. Also within Judaism, the sages disagreed upon the meaning of what it meant to "lay your hands upon the head of the offering." Some felt it was TRANSFERENCE, and some IDENTIFICATION. It appears that the transference side won out, which in turn influenced how the missionaries view what happens with the offering of their "Jesus."
They look at sacrifice as a means to TRANSFER the guilt and punishment of their sin, and that in turn, makes the atonement. I can tell you, that doctrine is hogwash. G-d does not need the shedding of innocent blood (either animal OR man) to make atonement. Those sages that felt the laying on of hands was a means for the sinner to IDENTIFY with the innocent sacrifice, and then as that animal was dying, the sinner was to be moved to put to death THEIR sin which caused them to kill the innocent animal, and that TURNING AWAY from sin (putting that sin to death), is what produced the atonement. TURNING from sin is what ATONES for sin, but the problem is that most would not value the death of an innocent animal to be sufficient enough to cause a turning away from sin. The mentality is that as long as you have enough animals to slaughter, you can get your sin atoned for, and this is what the missionaries TOOK from Judaism in how they view "Jesus" dying FOR their sin.
The doctrine of the missionaries is founded upon the influence of Judaism's substitutionary use of sacrifice, and that should not have been done. No where in the NT Scriptures does it say that a substitute died in the place of sinners. It does state the Lamb of G-d did die for the sins of the world. What does that mean? It you view sacrifice as a means to IDENTIFY with the Sacrifice, and then die WITH the Sacrifice, as that Sacrifice was dying FOR (because of) the sinners sin, THEN the sinner realizes that he/she can no longer REMAIN in active sin, and this is the TRUE meaning of how the Messiah can die "for" the sins of the world (to TAKE those sins AWAY from the life of a sinner/world).
The Foundation of the Torah (the ritual of the Red Heifer) details this process explicitly. This Ordinance was designed by G-d to SEPARATE a sinner FROM their sin, and to CLEANSE them from the defilement of death. The missionaries are clueless about what Moses WROTE, and they have corrupted the Truth about the Messiah dying FOR/BECAUSE OF the sins of the world. At least, this is my thinking on the issue. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.
RE: Problems with missionaries - ImAHebrew - 08-20-2020
Shalom Jason, it appears that you must agree in how the missionaires view their interpretation of the NT with their "Jesus" dying as their substitute FOR them? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.
RE: Problems with missionaries - Jason - 08-20-2020
(08-20-2020, 11:32 AM)ImAHebrew Wrote: Shalom Jason, it appears that you must agree in how the missionaires view their interpretation of the NT with their "Jesus" dying as their substitute FOR them? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.
I know that the New Testament teaches that Jesus provided remission of sins through his blood. Yes, that is a cornerstone teaching of the New Testament. If you don't believe in that teaching, then you don't believe in the New Testament.
Romans 3:25 (NIV)
"God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith."
Romans 5:9 (NIV)
"Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!"
Ephesians 1:7 (NIV)
"In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace..."
Hebrews 13:12 (NIV)
"And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood."
Revelation 1:5 (NIV)
"and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood..."
I'm sorry, but if you don't believe this, then you don't believe in the New Testament. You cannot believe in Jesus as anything if you don't believe in blood atonement.
My advice? Just get rid of faith in Jesus already. Jesus was not the Messiah. He wasn't God incarnate. He wasn't a blood sacrifice. He wasn't the king of the Jews. He wasn't a great teacher. He was nothing. Just stop believing in him already. You've already undermined any reason that you might ever have had for believing in that stuff. Just take the next logical step and let it go.
RE: Problems with missionaries - Ismq - 08-21-2020
Jason,i think that what you have said are offensive words and,proselitizying is not allowed.
RE: Problems with missionaries - Ismq - 08-21-2020
(08-14-2020, 08:46 PM)Jason Wrote: So, your doctrine is superior because it rejects the New Testament?These are offensive words.
My thinking:
1. The New Testament says again and again and again that Jesus died for the sin of the world.
2. By rejecting the idea that Jesus died for sins, you are rejecting a principle teaching of the New Testament.
3. Rejecting the New Testament undermines the entire teaching about Jesus and who he was and what he did.
4. If you undermine the New Testament, there is no other basis on which to make claims about Jesus.
You cannot know if Jesus existed without the New Testament. You cannot know what Jesus said without the New Testament. You cannot know where Jesus went or who he went there with without the New Testament.
If you reject the New Testament, you are logically obligated to reject everything you know about Jesus and throw that garbage teaching into the bin. You're so close to the truth, yet so far away by holding on to an entire mythology developed around a teacher who most likely never even existed.
RE: Problems with missionaries - Jason - 08-21-2020
(08-21-2020, 12:10 AM)Ismq Wrote: Jason,i think that what you have said are offensive words and,proselitizying is not allowed.
My immediate reaction is "piss off," but I'd like to be more diplomatic than that.
This is a Jewish forum. It is perfectly fine to proselytize FOR JUDAISM. You've misunderstood your place.
RE: Problems with missionaries - Jason - 08-21-2020
(08-21-2020, 12:11 AM)Ismq Wrote: These are offensive words.
I don't take any responsibility for another person's inability to have a rational discussion. I'm saying that the other user should be consistent in his statements. There is nothing offensive there.
I will say a million times that Christianity is a false religion and Jesus is a false god. If you think that's offensive, you might want to either adjust what you take offense to (because this is not an offensive opinion) or, to repeat my lack of diplomacy, piss off.
You're not a moderator here, and I don't need you to correct me. You're free to believe whatever you believe, and I cannot hold you responsible for the opinions that you've got. However, I am free to say openly that Jesus is not a god. That doesn't need to offend you. It is the Jewish opinion across the board, and there is nothing offensive about it.
RE: Problems with missionaries - Ismq - 08-21-2020
You may express your opinion,but what have you said(throw that garbage teaching into the bin)i think that is not respectful.