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The Second Gathering to the land - ThomasDGW - 05-17-2024
I see a clear, consistent description of the second gathering of Israel to their land coming from Isaiah 11, Jeremiah 16:14-16, and Jeremiah 31:7-9
(1) It will involve the drying of the tongue of the Egyptian Sea (apparently the Gulf of Suez) and the River (apparently the Euphrates) so that they will walk back to the land without wading or swimming.
(2) The exiles of Israel will come from many places, particularly the north country, where they will have been living in scattered, poor conditions, including hiding in holes of the rocks. They will come walking in a big group, weeping, being shepherded by the Lord.
(3) This second gathering will be so impressive that it will replace the first gathering (the exodus from Egypt) in the minds of the people as the most impressive event of the history of Israel.
It is obvious that this has not happened, yet. A group of Jews is there now, but they mostly have come on airplanes and ships, a few hundred at a time. There was a time when the Jews in the north had difficulty getting out of the Soviet Union, but that seems to be past and the Jews still up there are there because they have not decided to come back to their land, yet. I understand that about half of the Jews are back in the land at present.
My point is this: This second gathering, as described by the prophets, does not seem possible if a significant amount of Jews have already returned and are established in the land.
The shocking implication is that Jews will once again be expelled from their land before the second gathering can take place to inaugurate the Messianic Kingdom.
There are other practical arguments that confirm this conclusion. One is that the majority of Jews in Israel do not seem to be Torah observant. I recently retired from working for an Israeli company, and saw a generally humanistic approach to life by all that I saw. Staying in the land has something to do with obeying God, the last time I checked. Next, Israel continues to be dependent on the U.S. I was of the understanding that Israel is supposed to trust in God alone. Well, the U.S. is teetering on the brink. It stands to reason that when the U.S. goes down, Israel will fulfill their own word that they depend on the U.S.
At this time, anti-Semitism is coming out of the closet and increasing around the world. Brooklyn may be turning into a death trap, especially if Putin launches a nuclear tsunami, as has been threatened. I think most Jews are seeing this and realizing that it might be time to move out. Back to Israel seems to be the best choice, but is it? By all means, get out of the U.S. now, if you can't manage to do it yesterday. but Israel might be a death trap, also. I suggest going some other place, maybe Paraguay, maybe Botswana. The exile is not over, until the Lord shepherds his people back, walking and weeping, not on a Boeing airplane.
RE: The Second Gathering to the land - Robert - 05-18-2024
(05-17-2024, 01:37 AM)ThomasDGW Wrote: [...] My point is this: This second gathering, as described by the prophets, does not seem possible if a significant amount of Jews have already returned and are established in the land.
The shocking implication is that Jews will once again be expelled from their land before the second gathering can take place to inaugurate the Messianic Kingdom. [...]
On the Jewish world populations, about just under half reside in the United States:
Quote:[...] Israel hosts the largest core Jewish population in the world with 7.2 million,
followed by the United States with 6.3 million. [...]
Source:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_population_by_country
While the Scriptures prophesy as you point out, that the Jews will be brought back to their ancestral homeland of Israel by G-d, the Scriptures do not prophesy any further exile.
However, the Scriptures also say this:
Quote:Yirmiyahu (Jeremiah) 30:16:
[...] all who devour you shall be devoured, and all your adversaries, yea all of them, shall go into captivity, and those who plunder you shall be plunder, and all who prey upon you I will give for prey.
Translation extract source:
https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16027/jewish/Chapter-30.htm
RE: The Second Gathering to the land - ThomasDGW - 05-19-2024
"While the Scriptures prophesy as you point out, that the Jews will be brought back to their ancestral homeland of Israel by G-d, the Scriptures do not prophesy any further exile."
Will it really be a further exile, if the Jews have not been brought back by God, in the way God described? For a long time, I also assumed that Israel forming a nation in the promised land would not be reversed. But, as I was meditating on these prophecies I mentioned, and others, and the implications that the Jews would have to be out of the land before the end, I thought of how Jews were given permission to return to the land in the time of Ezra. Over about the next 500 years, the second temple was established and a thriving population of Jews lived in the land, although there was still a significant diaspora. But that wasn't the prophesied second gathering, and there was the next expulsion of the Jews. Was that so different from the "return to the land" that we witness today, to the point that we can confidently say that there will be no more expulsion?
I am aware that anyone who attacks the Jewish people will be receive vengeance from God. Even when Jews are being punished by God Himself, no one should dare help, or even rejoice, as Obadiah warned. But that doesn't mean that an expulsion won't happen.
I came to this understanding alone. I don't see anyone else saying this, but if my reading and reasoning are sound, attention should be paid to this, at least as a possibility. If I am right, and the nation of Israel is defeated, it will be a huge shock, and the more so after confidently saying "Never again." More importantly, if I am right, this might save a lot of Jewish lives if they run to Zambia, for example, instead of Israel. I assure you that I will feel sick to see the Muslims gloat.
RE: The Second Gathering to the land - Robert - 05-19-2024
(05-19-2024, 12:10 AM)ThomasDGW Wrote: "While the Scriptures prophesy as you point out, that the Jews will be brought back to their ancestral homeland of Israel by G-d, the Scriptures do not prophesy any further exile."
Will it really be a further exile, if the Jews have not been brought back by God, in the way God described? For a long time, I also assumed that Israel forming a nation in the promised land would not be reversed. But, as I was meditating on these prophecies I mentioned, and others, and the implications that the Jews would have to be out of the land before the end, I thought of how Jews were given permission to return to the land in the time of Ezra. Over about the next 500 years, the second temple was established and a thriving population of Jews lived in the land, although there was still a significant diaspora. But that wasn't the prophesied second gathering, and there was the next expulsion of the Jews. Was that so different from the "return to the land" that we witness today, to the point that we can confidently say that there will be no more expulsion?
I am aware that anyone who attacks the Jewish people will be receive vengeance from God. Even when Jews are being punished by God Himself, no one should dare help, or even rejoice, as Obadiah warned. But that doesn't mean that an expulsion won't happen.
I came to this understanding alone. I don't see anyone else saying this, but if my reading and reasoning are sound, attention should be paid to this, at least as a possibility. If I am right, and the nation of Israel is defeated, it will be a huge shock, and the more so after confidently saying "Never again." More importantly, if I am right, this might save a lot of Jewish lives if they run to Zambia, for example, instead of Israel. I assure you that I will feel sick to see the Muslims gloat.
I don't see any requirement in the Scriptures for the Jewish people to be fully or mostly in exile at the time when the Redemption shall occur, and as I pointed-out there are still many Jews still living outside the Jewish ancestral homeland of Israel.
I believe the following two paragraphs are directly relevant to the Redemption and protection of Israel (prevention of exile) to which you refer:
Not meaning any disrespect to Israel's "secular" Jews, and it is just my view, but I believe that meanwhile (that is pending the Redemption of the remaining Exiles), religious Jews / the Jewish religious communities, bring merit to the Jewish Community / to Israel (likely with the exception of the minority anti-Zionists since they reject the land G-d gave to the Jewish people),
and that this merit is hopefully helping to protect Israel in the long run.
Again, not meaning any disrespect to Israeli LGBTI+ people, the Scriptures forbidden a certain same-sex act for Jews. It could logically be argued that it cannot be "helpful" in gaining the Divine assistance whether for the Redemption of the remaining Exiles or for the protection of Israel, for communities in Israel, to:
Not only ignore that Scriptural provision,
but to actually impliedly-celebrate commission of what it forbids, through "gay pride" parades.
Also meaning no disrespect to other contributors here, since the question you have put up for discussion is a religious question and I am not a Rabbi, I suggest you discuss this question with a Rabbi, and my personal view, an Orthodox Rabbi.
RE: The Second Gathering to the land - COmentator - 05-20-2024
80 years ago the jewish communites in Europe from portugal to the Ukraine from scandanvai to Northern Africa were virtual destroyed in the shoah
Today Europe is not safe for Jewish persons
Belgium:https://www.timesofisrael.com/israeli-tourist-in-belgium-brutally-attacked-for-peeling-off-anti-israeli-sticker/?utm_campaign=most_popular&utm_source=website&utm_medium=article_end&utm_content=5
France: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Sarah_Halimi#:~:text=The%20Halimi%20killing%20generated%20significant,and%20press%20of%20a%20coverup.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/journalist-investigates-wholesale-denial-of-pivotal-anti-semitic-murder-in-paris/
ireland pro Hamas demenstrations...............
from 1948 to today Jewish communites in Arab/muslin states in the Middle east, african and asia are depopulated 90% most go up to israel
Jewish community in russia exodus under begin to Israel; today for 4 years 43,000 have gone up to Israel
Jewish communities today in Ukraine for the past 4 years.today for 4 years 15,000 have gone up to Israel
in 2004 the Sanhedron was revived by 71 Rabbis in Israel:
https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%94%D7%A1%D7%A0%D7%94%D7%93%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%9F_%D7%94%D7%97%D7%93%D7%A9%D7%94