• Foreknowledge: God knew everything that would happen and created it anyway
• Determination: Infallible foreknowledge means the future is fixed; free will is illusory
• Design: Humans are punished for functioning as designed
• Proportionality: Eternal punishment for finite, biologically driven infractions
• Epistemology: Faith is non-distinguishing and unverifiable; This is crucial. Belief is conviction. Knowledge requires evidence
• Geography: Religious belief is determined by birthplace, not truth

• Foreknowledge: God knew everything that would happen and created it anyway
  To me, it's not that simple. First, we really cannot understand the nature of G-d. I believe He is the past, present and future so everything is on one even plain.
• Determination: Infallible foreknowledge means the future is fixed; free will is illusory.
  Just because He knows the future (again, a nature we cannot understand), it doesn't mean we do not have free will. Maybe He sees what our choices are.
• Design: Humans are punished for functioning as designed.
  I don't see it as being punished for functioning as designed. I see it as feeling the consequences of our choices that go against G-d's will.
• Proportionality: Eternal punishment for finite, biologically driven infractions
  This is not really a Jewish thought.
• Epistemology: Faith is non-distinguishing and unverifiable; This is crucial. Belief is conviction. Knowledge requires evidence
  Yes, what you are saying makes sense. But for some, just seeing how we and the world operates is knowledge that leads to belief
• Geography: Religious belief is determined by birthplace, not truth
  Not sure I understand or agree with this statement.Again, these are just a few very quick thoughts. I and others may dive deeper.Good, fair questions!

(08-02-2026, 11:15 PM)searchinmyroots Wrote: RE:  I and others may dive deeper

(08-03-2026, 02:19 PM)searchinmyroots Wrote: Please remember, this is a Jewish forum so we will answer from a Jewish perspective.

• Foreknowledge:God created Lucifer knowing he would try to pull a coup d'état on an infinite God without limitations. For a supernatural being, Lucifer was not very bright. I mean, I'm a mere mortal and I could have called that one in. However, God created Lucifer with express, explicit, infinite, foreknowledge, that:
  
  
  Lucifer would rebel. • God knew he would kick Lucifer out of heaven. • God knew that Lucifer would take a horde of angels with him. • God knew that their first stop would be planet Earth, specifically Eden. • God knew, there in the Garden of Eden, Lucifer would tempt the first two humans on the planet. • God knew that Adam and Eve would disobey him. • God knew that he would kick Adam and Eve out of the Garden of Eden. • God knew this very act would forever plunge the world into unspeakable pain, agony, sorrow, torture, death, wars, famines, pestilence. God knew this with express, explicit, infinite, foreknowledge, and He did it anyway!
• Determination: I'm saying that if God knows something with certainty from eternity, it cannot happen otherwise. Not because of coercion, but because of the logical structure of infallible knowledge. If something could turn out differently, then God's foreknowledge would be wrong, and an omniscient God cannot be wrong. Therefore, whatever God knows will happen, and must happen. The future is fixed. Not open, not flexible, not contingent on human choices. Fixed. This distinction matters more than it might seem. There's a difference between saying the future is fixed - locked in place by the logical structure of infallible knowledge - and saying God determined it - actively willed and authored every outcome. The first is logical determinism. The second is theological determinism. I'm claiming both, and the bridge between them is this: God didn't just know what would happen. He chose to create a world He knew would unfold this way, when He could have created a different world, or no world at all. His creative act was a selection among possibilities, and He selected the one He knew would produce Lucifer, the Fall, 170 billion souls (estimated population of the world to date), and eternal torment for most of them. Foreknowledge makes the future unchangeable. The creative choice makes God responsible for the future He foreknew. He didn't just see the movie; He greenlit the production.
• Proportionality: The standard theological defense is that the severity of an offense scales with the status of the one offended. Since God is infinite, the argument goes, sinning against an infinite God warrants infinite punishment. A crime against a king carries a harsher penalty than the same crime against a commoner. So a sin against the King of the Universe merits an infinite penalty. This sounds reasonable until you examine it. The severity of an offense is not determined solely by the rank of the victim. If I insult a king, the insult itself is still finite - it's a finite act by a finite being producing finite harm. What changes is the king's response. The king may choose to impose a disproportionate penalty, but that disproportionality reflects the king's power, not the magnitude of the offense. The infinity of the victim doesn't transfer infinity to the act. A lie is a lie whether it's told to a beggar or to God. It's a finite act committed by a finite being in a finite span of time.
  Furthermore, the analogy the theologians use - crime against a king - actually undermines their case. Even in human justice systems, which are imperfect by their own admission, we recognize that punishments should be proportional to the harm caused, not to the status of the victim.
• Epistemology: In the Christian Bible it states: "That ye may know ye are the sons of God." In Job: "I know my redeemer liveth." But how do you know? Christians respond that it's faith. However, faith by its very nature and Biblical definition is the very absence of evidence. But I'll go even further and posit that 170 billion people (estimated population of the earth to date) have had, or do have, faith. Even the most obnoxious, militant atheist you've ever met. They too have faith. Did the attendees at the Jonestown massacre have faith? Yes! In fact they had Maxwell House faith. It was good to the last drop. Did the Hale-Bopp participants have faith? Absolutely. How about David Koresh and his followers? Did they have faith? Indeed they did. On and on we could go with examples. In fact, in these three examples, they had so much faith, they were willing to die for their convictions. They had faith. Everyone has faith. Faith is not unique and therefore, seemingly, not enough to bet an eternal soul on. I know the world is round in nature. I don't have faith it's round, I know it and I can prove it. I know the wind exists. I don't have faith it exists, I know it and can prove it, measure it, and predict it. 
• Geography: I have always been struck by religions and their associated gods'/goddesses' very adherence to geography. For instance, if I were born in the Middle East, I would most certainly be Muslim, worship Allah fervently, and believe that Muhammad was His prophet. If I were born in India, I would most certainly be Hindu. If an Asiatic country, it could be any number of belief systems like Jainism, Taoism, Buddhism, and I would worship fervently many gods and goddesses. But I was born in America, and the predominant religious belief system in America is Christianity. Naturally, I would gravitate towards Christianity. This is why I say that all religions and their associated gods or goddesses feel the same to me. Sure, they all have different beliefs, different theologies, different ways of obtaining eternal reward and avoiding eternal damnation. However, when we boil the ox down to the bouillon cube, here is what they all say: "If you do not believe the way we do, the book we believe, and the God we believe in and so fervently worship, then you will not go to our eternal reward, but you will go to our eternal damnation." 

(08-04-2026, 12:21 AM)irmadlad Wrote: searchinmyroots

Forgive my ignorance. I was raised in a very oppressively religious, and quite abusive Christian environment. By the belt and by the book, as it were. I was once backhanded across the face for my arrogance in questioning an almighty God. Ever since, these questions that trouble me, have been with me which drives my reading into other religions to see how they compare and what are the common threads. As, I mentioned, of all the religions I've studied, I am embarrassed to say Judaism is not one of them. Perhaps that is my fault.

RE: So who's belief is right? I guess we'll have to wait and find out

That seems a bit late.