(10-03-2020, 11:12 PM)Yehudani Wrote: While he has some beautiful teachings, there are many teachings by Manis that don't sit well with me, this being one that sticks out.

He has also been placed on a blacklist for "erev rav" by some orthodox rabbis that don't consider him to be a kosher source of information, I don't want to rosh lashon hará but I will say that I personally don't feel comfortable with several of the things he teaches.

(10-06-2020, 09:19 AM)Yehudani Wrote:

(05-06-2020, 02:35 AM)searchinmyroots Wrote: Putting the midrash aside, the questions he asks seem pretty legit.

What did death mean to Adam?

G-d didn't say "if" you eat from it, He said "the day you eat from it".

Adam didn't have a yetzer hara yet.

G-d didn't say they would suffer, He said they would die. Why no warning, that wasn't part of the deal!

Did Adam and Eve know what life was like outside the garden?

Why would Adam name his wife Chava (life) if she helped bring death to the world?

I get the feeling, bearing in mind that Torah gives overviews and not detailed analysis of everything that Adam understood the consequences, that "you will die" didn't mean you'll go down and bite the dust as soon as you ear the fruit, more, you'll start to decay, you'll no longer be eternal and privy to being what you are. 
In fact, they did die in the sense that they were no longer what they were, and became what we are. 
They became something  that would die, would feel pain, etc. 

What is also forgotten is that when they were cornered, they all blameshifted, and Adam even blamed HaShem (the woman YOU gave me) so the punishments were handed out based on blame shifting and ingratitude, where they could have fallen to the floor in tears and begged for forgiveness. 

There is so much more to the story than a basic reading gives, there is a lot of subtlty, but as it's all given in a very short and fast moving narrative, we have to extract and analyse the details ourselves.

(10-06-2020, 07:26 PM)Yehudani Wrote:

(10-06-2020, 12:38 PM)searchinmyroots Wrote:

(10-06-2020, 09:19 AM)Yehudani Wrote:

(05-06-2020, 02:35 AM)searchinmyroots Wrote: Putting the midrash aside, the questions he asks seem pretty legit.

What did death mean to Adam?

G-d didn't say "if" you eat from it, He said "the day you eat from it".

Adam didn't have a yetzer hara yet.

G-d didn't say they would suffer, He said they would die. Why no warning, that wasn't part of the deal!

Did Adam and Eve know what life was like outside the garden?

Why would Adam name his wife Chava (life) if she helped bring death to the world?

I get the feeling, bearing in mind that Torah gives overviews and not detailed analysis of everything that Adam understood the consequences, that "you will die" didn't mean you'll go down and bite the dust as soon as you ear the fruit, more, you'll start to decay, you'll no longer be eternal and privy to being what you are. 
In fact, they did die in the sense that they were no longer what they were, and became what we are. 
They became something  that would die, would feel pain, etc. 

What is also forgotten is that when they were cornered, they all blameshifted, and Adam even blamed HaShem (the woman YOU gave me) so the punishments were handed out based on blame shifting and ingratitude, where they could have fallen to the floor in tears and begged for forgiveness. 

There is so much more to the story than a basic reading gives, there is a lot of subtlty, but as it's all given in a very short and fast moving narrative, we have to extract and analyse the details ourselves.

Yes, very good points.

Judaism seems to focus on the blame shifting while Christianity focuses more on their interpretation of "original sin".

Another interesting point to raise there, that is completely missed in Christianity, is that, if we count the serpent as a "person" for the sake of keeping language consistent, Adam was the third person to sin.

(10-09-2020, 01:04 AM)searchinmyroots Wrote: One of my favorite books Dana!

Did you know Rabbi Fohrman just released a new one?

I'll be getting my copy soon!

https://korenpub.com/products/genesis-a-parsha-companion

(10-09-2020, 09:46 AM)Yehudani Wrote:

(10-09-2020, 12:23 AM)Dana Wrote: A favorite interpretation of mine was given by Rabbi Samuael Raphael Hirsch when the snake challenges Eve, paraphrased by Rabbi Fohrman from his book The Beast that Crouches at the Door.  


Genesis 3:1 - "Even if G-d said do not eat from any of the trees in the garden...[So what]? "Didn't he also create your desires and instincts? Why not listen to those; aren't they the authentic voice of G-d as well?"

The lesson being is a snake does what comes natural and listens to their instincts as do other animals, which is the way G-d created them while the human is to hear a different voice, that of the word of G-d.

Very nice - pre- "eyes opening" they still had a yetzer hara? My understanding was that the serpent (samach mem?) represented the yetzer hara as an external being that was trying to creep in, and after that, the yetzer hara animal instinct / selfish desire was then inside us and no longer needed to possess a snake? Although those that believe in a literal devil / samach mem (?) do seem to believe that he is physical and serpentine too, but I really don't know much about Kabbalah to really comment... 

That said, if there wasn't even a shadow of yetzer hara in Eve, would she have coveted being like G-d? This interpretation invites some new questions.