' Wrote:...This is perhaps best symbolized by the fact that their most successful and well-known advocate has been Jay Sekulow, a Messianic Jew and former Trump legal adviser who “fused Jewish belief and Christian evangelicalism.”...

(02-20-2019, 09:46 PM)Jude86 Wrote: So, the reason why I--a Catholic--am curious about this question is because the Christian way of viewing the nature of the relationship between Christianity and Judaism is as that our two religions are intertwined; and I had some questions about wanting to hear more of the Jewish perspective on this because I'd heard some differing opinions from some Orthodox Jewish rabbis. From the Catholic perspective, we see Christianity as having come from Judaism--as in, without Judaism, there would be no Christianity. There is no doubt, from our perspective, that Jesus and his followers were Jewish and lived and died as Jews.

This perspective on the nature of the relationship between the two was interrupted somewhat when I read several opinions from certain Jewish scholars who insisted that Jesus and his followers were no longer Jews--that is, the moment they took on the belief in Jesus as the Messiah, they ceased to be Jewish. Now, I'm not here to get into the can of worms that is "Messianic Judaism" because that's a huge issue in itself; but I have to bring it up because they were using the rejection of Messianic Judaism as a way to look back and retroactively declare the followers of Jesus--and Jesus himself--apostates from Judaism.

I had always thought that Jesus and his followers would not have recognised themselves as Christians but rather as Jews. The Gospels are unreliable because since the time they were originally written, it is clear that they underwent some influence by anti-semitic, gentile hands--those portions of the Gospels which remain relatively uncorrupted, however, make it clear that Jesus taught his followers to obey the Pharisees--who eventually evolved into rabbinical Judaism. In spite of this, I was in some personal conversations on this topic with an Orthodox Jewish person who told me that in spite of the fact that Jesus and his followers saw themselves as Jewish, their belief in Jesus as the Messiah cancelled that out and made them race traitors, after a fashion.

In light of that, the Christian use of the Tanakh was seen as "appropriation." I was actually kinda surprised to hear this, because the Christian perspective is that Judaism is a tree, Christianity is a branch off the tree and we Gentiles are grafted onto that branch. The metaphor of being "adopted" is huge in the writings of Paul. From the Chrisitan perspective, this may be all fine and dandy, but it's not so easy from the perspective of Jews standing outside of Christianity looking in. For one thing, the Christian belief in the Trinity (which, I will insist till my dying breath that we believe in ONE G-d) has been said by some Jewish scholars to be indicative of the fact that on top of not really being related Judaism at all, we Christians don't even worship the same G-d. The Shema prayer is part of Christianity, though--in the Gospels, Jesus prays it. In Catholicism, our prayers always close with the insistence on One G-d--a belief in HaShem.

So now I wanted to get some perspectives on this. A few concepts have been thrown out to think about are: Appropriation, apostasy, race treachery, and idolatry. Is there contiguation between Christianity and Judaism or is there a hard break?

So, that's part of the discussion I wanted to hear because, again, the Christian perspective--at least from my group of Christians--had been that we were brothers or adopted brothers; but some stuff I was reading from some Jewish scholars suggested that we're not brothers--we're not even adopted brothers: we're just a group of dudes that started saying that we were brothers without any real reason to say that. So I wanted to get even more Jewish perspectives on the nature of the relationship between Judaism and Christianity.

(05-22-2023, 12:31 AM)searchinmyroots Wrote: Veil,

This isn't  Christian forum so your "view" of the Hebrew bible and "messiah" is not what Judaism says or believes.

Please refrain from bringing Christianity into the Hebrew bible.

Thank you.