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+--- Thread: Hebrew Language arami oved avi (/showthread.php?tid=283)
arami oved avi - nili - 07-03-2019
How might one normally (?) translate ...
- אֲרַמִּי אֹבֵד אָבִי
RE: arami oved avi - RabbiO - 07-03-2019
(07-03-2019, 12:08 PM)nili Wrote: How might one normally (?) translate ...
the ki tavo avowal which would later find itself enshrined in the haggadah?
- אֲרַמִּי אֹבֵד אָבִי
I take it you're asking whether one sides with, say, Rashbam or his grandfather.
RE: arami oved avi - nili - 07-04-2019
(07-03-2019, 11:44 PM)RabbiO Wrote:(07-03-2019, 12:08 PM)nili Wrote: How might one normally (?) translate ...
the ki tavo avowal which would later find itself enshrined in the haggadah?
- אֲרַמִּי אֹבֵד אָבִי
I take it you're asking whether one sides with, say, Rashbam or his grandfather.
I'm asking for the range of informed translations one might expect from (let us say) 72 Hebrew grammarians confronted by the phrase in a source not deemed scripture or midrash.
RE: arami oved avi - Dana - 07-04-2019
My father, a (perishing or lost) Aramean.
I don't understand why wandering is used in some translations. אֺבֵד Oved, is a Qal verb, active and a participle.
I welcome any corrections on the Hebrew interpretation.
RE: arami oved avi - nili - 07-04-2019
(07-04-2019, 03:24 AM)Dana Wrote: My father, a (perishing or lost) Aramean.
I don't understand why wandering is used in some translations. אֺבֵד Oved, is a Qal verb, active and a participle.
I welcome any corrections on the Hebrew interpretation.
Similarly ...
- Alter - "My father was an Aramean about to perish" ...
- Fox - "An Aramean Astray my Ancestor" ...
- Friedman - "My father was a perishing Aramean" ...
At the risk of injecting politics into this, I'm reminded of the HIAS button that reads:
- MY PEOPLE WERE REFUGEES TOO
RE: arami oved avi - Jason - 07-05-2019
Most people take אוֹבֵד here in the sense of “wandering” (like נוֹדֵד). We might say “migrant” today. That is, he was “a stranger in a strange land,” an Aramean who was migrating with his flocks in the land of Canaan.
Referencing Driver’s Hebrew lexicon, Millard (1980) says that the term אוֹבֵד “when applied to animals, esp. sheep, suggests the idea of lost (and so in danger of perishing) by straying” (p. 153). He says that it is then applied to Jacob disparagingly in this sense. He fills out his picture of the phrase in the conclusion of his article, thus: “We suggest the Hebrew expression ʾărammî ʾōḇēḏ [אֲרַמִּי אוֹבֵד] may carry more meaning than simply ‘a wandering Aramean.’ The word ʾōḇēḏ [אוֹבֵד] may have the nuance of ‘refugee’” (p. 155).
It reminds me of the commandment to “love the stranger because you were strangers in the land of Egypt” [וַאֲהַבְתֶּם אֶת הַגֵּר כִּי גֵרִים הֱיִיתֶם בְּאֶרֶץ מִצְרָיִם – Deut. 10:19].
References:
Millard, A. (1980). A Wandering Aramean. Journal of Near Eastern Studies, 39(2), 153-155. Retrieved from http://www.jstor.org/stable/545123
RE: arami oved avi - nili - 07-05-2019
(07-05-2019, 05:37 AM)Jason Wrote: Most people take אוֹבֵד here in the sense of “wandering” (like נוֹדֵד). We might say “migrant” today. That is, he was “a stranger in a strange land,” an Aramean who was migrating with his flocks in the land of Canaan.
Referencing Driver’s Hebrew lexicon, Millard (1980) says that the term אוֹבֵד “when applied to animals, esp. sheep, suggests the idea of lost (and so in danger of perishing) by straying” (p. 153). He says that it is then applied to Jacob disparagingly in this sense. He fills out his picture of the phrase in the conclusion of his article, thus: “We suggest the Hebrew expression ʾărammî ʾōḇēḏ [אֲרַמִּי אוֹבֵד] may carry more meaning than simply ‘a wandering Aramean.’ The word ʾōḇēḏ [אוֹבֵד] may have the nuance of ‘refugee’” (p. 155).
It reminds me of the commandment to “love the stranger because you were strangers in the land of Egypt” [וַאֲהַבְתֶּם אֶת הַגֵּר כִּי גֵרִים הֱיִיתֶם בְּאֶרֶץ מִצְרָיִם – Deut. 10:19].
References:
Millard, A. (1980). A Wandering Aramean. Journal of Near Eastern Studies, 39(2), 153-155. Retrieved from http://www.jstor.org/stable/545123
Interesting article -- particularly its reference to Apiru/Habiru. Thanks.
(See also the The Interface Between Language And Realia In The Preexilic Books Of The Bible)