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The original sin - a_Sarah - 04-05-2020
During all this lockdown I have started a conversation (via voice messages) with an openly Christian neighbor of mine about our beliefs. I asked her "why Jesus" because this is one huge part I could never understand about Christianity.
Her answers are very centered on sin and mankind needing rescue (by accepting Jesus), leading back to the concept of original sin. She said that Judaism and Christianity have this in common, but so far my understanding was that in Judaism the consequences of that incident are not that any person being born "inherits" that sin, but that people start out innocent and without sin, but can, due to their own free will, commit sins in their lifetime. Are there any other interpretations in Judaism? Or is there any passage that suggests people need to be redeemed from that original sin?
Thank you!
RE: The original sin - searchinmyroots - 04-05-2020
Hello Sarah, hope you are doing well.
Quite coincidentally, I received this Youtube video from Jews for Judaism this morning!!
Not sure if it answers your question directly, but I thought you might find it interesting.
Your understanding of the Judaism's viewpoint as far as I can see is correct!
There is a verse in Genesis that says "our inclination is evil from our youth", not from birth.
8:21 - And the Lord smelled the pleasant aroma, and the Lord said to Himself, "I will no longer curse the earth because of man, for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth, and I will no longer smite all living things as I have done.
There are many, many more things I could reference if you would like, just let me know!
I would ask her if she knows the Hebrew bible says we can rule over sin.
And ask her why G-d and the prophets told us many times in many places of ways to be forgiven, without any sacrifices.
A perfect example is II Chronicles 7:14 where King Solomon is dedicating the temple and tells us how to be forgiven -
7:14 - And My people, upon whom My name is called, humble themselves and pray and seek My presence and repent of their evil ways, I shall hear from heaven and forgive their sin and heal their land.
That kind of eliminates any need for Jesus in my opinion!
Here is a quick article that may help as well -
https://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/articles/sin-atonement-and-salvation
RE: The original sin - Peergint - 04-05-2020
(04-05-2020, 02:13 PM)a_Sarah Wrote: During all this lockdown I have started a conversation (via voice messages) with an openly Christian neighbor of mine about our beliefs. I asked her "why Jesus" because this is one huge part I could never understand about Christianity.
Her answers are very centered on sin and mankind needing rescue (by accepting Jesus), leading back to the concept of original sin. She said that Judaism and Christianity have this in common, but so far my understanding was that in Judaism the consequences of that incident are not that any person being born "inherits" that sin, but that people start out innocent and without sin, but can, due to their own free will, commit sins in their lifetime. Are there any other interpretations in Judaism? Or is there any passage that suggests people need to be redeemed from that original sin?
Thank you!
As I understand it, we are all born with the original sin - Adam and Eve's belief that Satan told the truth that they would not die if they ate the fruit, and not believing what God said, and subsequently eating the fruit. But we sin because we are born with a sinful nature. The Messiah, Jesus Christ came to free us from ALL sin, past, present and future.
As a Christian, I find it very easy to believe in Jesus, but I never understand why Jewish people do not. Even the first 5 books, the Torah points to a Messiah yet Jesus is rejected. Please advise me, do Jewish people read all the Old Testament or just the first 5 books?
RE: The original sin - searchinmyroots - 04-05-2020
(04-05-2020, 02:47 PM)Peergint Wrote:(04-05-2020, 02:13 PM)a_Sarah Wrote: During all this lockdown I have started a conversation (via voice messages) with an openly Christian neighbor of mine about our beliefs. I asked her "why Jesus" because this is one huge part I could never understand about Christianity.
Her answers are very centered on sin and mankind needing rescue (by accepting Jesus), leading back to the concept of original sin. She said that Judaism and Christianity have this in common, but so far my understanding was that in Judaism the consequences of that incident are not that any person being born "inherits" that sin, but that people start out innocent and without sin, but can, due to their own free will, commit sins in their lifetime. Are there any other interpretations in Judaism? Or is there any passage that suggests people need to be redeemed from that original sin?
Thank you!
As I understand it, we are all born with the original sin - Adam and Eve's belief that Satan told the truth that they would not die if they ate the fruit, and not believing what God said, and subsequently eating the fruit. But we sin because we are born with a sinful nature. The Messiah, Jesus Christ came to free us from ALL sin, past, present and future.
As a Christian, I find it very easy to believe in Jesus, but I never understand why Jewish people do not. Even the first 5 books, the Torah points to a Messiah yet Jesus is rejected. Please advise me, do Jewish people read all the Old Testament or just the first 5 books?
Your understanding is not what the Hebrew bible says.
Yes we sin but that is a choice. How come Christians don't say we do good as well?
We have both, an evil and a good inclination, it's our choice which one to follow as we are told to choose many times in the Hebrew bible.
We read the entire Hebrew bible as we have for thousands of years. You can see from the Dead Sea Scrolls where many of the writings outside of the first 5 books are written.
There is nothing in the Hebrew bible that points to Jesus as being a messiah, absolutely nothing.
This forum is not to preach Christianity but you are more than welcome to ask questions.
Thank you!
RE: The original sin - Peergint - 04-05-2020
I am not trying to preach Christianity to anyone, merely trying to understand, and nothing more. If I give that impression I am sorry, it's not my intention.
Would I be right in saying that the Hebrew bible is very similar to the Old Testament?
If I am wrong then please advise the difference for me so that I can understand.
It's my understanding that although Jesus may not be mentioned by name, he is referred to, especially in Isaiah 53.
Regarding good and evil. We may consider ourselves to be good, but God's idea on this could be that we are not. Being good in our own eyes means nothing to God who, being righteous and just may judge us differently.
RE: The original sin - Jason - 04-05-2020
The concept of children being born as sinners because of some historical sin is simply wicked. It is wicked and foolish.
RE: The original sin - Peergint - 04-05-2020
That's not it at all. What it means is that because of Adam and Eve's sin, death entered the world. Before then they had eternal life. Because of the original sin, and we are all descendants from Adam, his sin affects us all. Children don't sin, but because they're human like we are, they will sin at some point because none of us are perfect.
RE: The original sin - searchinmyroots - 04-05-2020
Peergint,
It seems as if you really don't understand Judaism and the Hebrew bible.
What you call the "old testament" is similar in some respect to the Hebrew bible.
Isaiah 53 has nothing to do with a messiah or Jesus. If you understood the Hebrew language that would be clear.
I repeat, there is nothing in the Hebrew bible that specifically refers to Jesus, you have been led down the wrong path as have many for thousands of years, but I understand, that's not your fault.
It's not that we consider ourselves good, it is what G-d says in the Hebrew bible. There are those in the Hebrew bible that are called righteous and have sinned, so being righteous does not mean we have to be perfect.
Proverbs 24:16 tells us -
"For a righteous man can fall seven times and rise, but the wicked shall stumble upon evil."
That is just one example.
I don't want to derail Sarah's thread so if you want to discuss this further, please start a new one.
Thanks!
RE: The original sin - Jason - 04-07-2020
Original sin is probably the worst concept Christians ever invented. It is simply an evil invention.
RE: The original sin - a_Sarah - 04-07-2020
Thank you for all your input! Great coincidence with that video, searchinmyroots, thanks for linking to it!
From my side, it's ok to have your opinion here, too, Peergint (since you made clear that you're not going to try to proselytize)! But I'd mainly like to find out if there is anything else in the Hebrew Bible that refers to that original sin situation. If we compare it to the view in Christianity, let's just point out that it's the Christian view.
I am really coming from the opposite direction than you, though: I cannot understand how Christians jump to the conclusion that Jesus is not "just" a great guy who had a historical impact, but in fact g-ds son, on one level with g-d.
To clarify where I'm coming from - I had a culturally Christian upbringing, with compulsory religion as a subject at school, church groups, spent a few years at a Christian school, and studied the historical Jesus for one subject of my finals back then. I am not Christian, however, but would like to convert to Judaism. So this is where I am coming from. Having Jesus in the equation was normal for me because that was the narrative I grew up with, even though no one in my family was religious. It is just SO normal to celebrate Christmas and Easter, our society builds around it. But I never realized the apparently HUGE role the original sin plays in Christianity until my neighbor pointed it out. My point of view is that a lot of people who are "habitual" Christians do not know this. In fact, I just had a call with my mother who didn't know that and was similarly shocked. But it makes sense for the answer to "why one needs to accept Jesus" - Christianity claims that Jesus died for our sins and you need to accept Jesus in order to be redeemed from that original sin that we apparently all inherited. Is that correct, regarding the Christian interpretation?
Quote:8:21 - And the Lord smelled the pleasant aroma, and the Lord said to Himself, "I will no longer curse the earth because of man, for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth, and I will no longer smite all living things as I have done.
@searchinmyroots, What is the context for that verse? It sounds like a shift in view, so there was cursing and smiting going on before that - due to which reason?
I know (not in detail) about the stories of Sodom & Gomorrha and the flood, but I understood it as consequences to very tangible and manifest sins, with lots of opportunity to save yourself and/or better the (very real) behavior (that you yourself decided to cause). This is a theme that I find throughout what I have learned about Judaism so far - basically g-d reminding you that you have the tools to be decent, so please do so (or occasionally suffer the consequences). Are there any passages where g-d punishes for anything other than actual wrongdoings?
Quote:I would ask her if she knows the Hebrew bible says we can rule over sin.
And ask her why G-d and the prophets told us many times in many places of ways to be forgiven, without any sacrifices.
She cited multiple verses of how in Judaism sacrifices are still a thing. The passage you linked to suggests it is a misconception. It seems that there is that distinction between sacrifices for your current wrongdoings and for some general assumed apparently inherent evilness, which I now understand does not exist in Judaism.
Quote:That's not it at all. What it means is that because of Adam and Eve's sin, death entered the world. Before then they had eternal life. Because of the original sin, and we are all descendants from Adam, his sin affects us all. Children don't sin, but because they're human like we are, they will sin at some point because none of us are perfect.
Peergint, Ok, I am with you so far. But if that's the interpretation, why do we still need Jesus as redeemer of said sin? Why not cut out the middle man and make it just about g-d and the person? And if Adam's sin means we are all going to die (but weren't before), how do we connect that to sinning in general? What is that redemption that only Jesus can achieve? And why can people not do that themselves?
I agree that the idea of being born a "sinner" is off-putting. I am not sure if it doesn't mean the same thing, though (the inclination of sinning, which indeed seems to be a human trait, just like children need to be taught ethics and responsible behavior or might end up hurting others if let run wild, versus some inherited guilt). It seems so destructive and seems to have led to progressively more authoritarian theological beliefs with each new "iteration".
On a personal level, Judaism seems so much more life affirming, affirming that people are humans and can fail, but always can better themselves, and that it just depends on their efforts, which are seen by g-d.