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General: Greek John 17:5
#1
John 17:5 Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

Now, Father, glorify Me in Your presence
with that glory I had with You
before the world existed.


Some say Jesus is claiming preexistence; some say Jesus is not.

I'm interested in what the Greek says.  Does the Greek indicate that Jesus was claiming preexistence?

Thank you.
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#2
I'm sure we've discussed this verse a lot on CARM. It obviously means that Jesus had glory before the world existed, and he was asking that such glory be restored to him.
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#3
(04-01-2019, 12:43 AM)Jason wrote: I'm sure we've discussed this verse a lot on CARM. It obviously means that Jesus had glory before the world existed, and he was asking that such glory be restored to him.

I don't remember being in any conversation about this verse on CARM and I didn't want to post the question on CARM because I didn't want to have to deal with John Milton, so I came here.

I found an article on the Internet:

https://christiandefense.org/deity-of-ch...nt-christ/

but with articles on the Internet and not knowing Greek I can't be sure it is correct. 

Clip:  Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself[para seautō] with the glory which I had [eichon] with You [para soi] before the world was.”

In Jesus’ High Priestly prayer to the Father, He requests or commands (as we will see)[3] the Father to glorify Himself together with the Father, with the glory that He had (or shared [eichon]) with (para) the Father before the world was. Hence, according to the Son’s own words, He pre-existed withthe Father—“before the world was.” 

Thanks.
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#4
That is indeed accurate, though JM has argued against it again and again with twists that are unjustified.
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#5
(04-01-2019, 12:43 AM)Jason wrote: I'm sure we've discussed this verse a lot on CARM. It obviously means that Jesus had glory before the world existed, and he was asking that such glory be restored to him.

(04-01-2019, 06:17 PM)Jason wrote: That is indeed accurate, though JM has argued against it again and again with twists that are unjustified.

Thank you.  You are awesome!!!
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#6
Well, not to start out on a negative note, but I know the author of that website well and have debated him ad nauseum via email and on my blog.  While Jesus is praying for restored “glory,” Dalcour abuses the aorist verb in this text (yes I have had Greek).  All I will say at this early juncture on this forum is that the key to understanding this passage is (1) to recognize that Jesus was praying, and (2) allow the macro-context of John 17 to stand—contra just seizing on 17.5.

Dalcour has a standing debate invitation from me that he has been dodging for years now—and yes I can prove that.

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#7
(10-18-2019, 08:49 AM)John Doe wrote: Well, not to start out on a negative note, but I know the author of that website well and have debated him ad nauseum via email and on my blog.  While Jesus is praying for restored “glory,” Dalcour abuses the aorist verb in this text (yes I have had Greek).  All I will say at this early juncture on this forum is that the key to understanding this passage is (1) to recognize that Jesus was praying, and (2) allow the macro-context of John 17 to stand—contra just seizing on 17.5.

Dalcour has a standing debate invitation from me that he has been dodging for years now—and yes I can prove that.

Are you talking about the website that George linked to?
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#8
Yes, Jason, I was referring to the link that George posted.

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#9
If you release the subordinate clause and revert to third person, you get:

δόξαν εἶχεν ὁ Ἰησοῦς πρὸ τοῦ τὸν κόσμον εἶναι παρὰ τοῦ θεοῦ.
Jesus had glory alongside God before the world began.

I don't know how you can understand it otherwise.

Instead of δόξῃ, it would be accusative. The dative belongs to the main clause, and the relative pronoun is in the dative by analogy. It should naturally be in the accusative, since that is the function the word has in the subordinate clause. It's very common for the relative clause to take on the case of the main clause function. Thus, τῇ δόξῃ ἥν εἶχον (which is technically correct) becomes τῇ δόξῃ ᾗ εἶχον. If we're separating the clauses, we need to put δόξα in the accusative.

The first-person (ἐγὼ) εἶχον becomes third-person (ἐκεῖνος = ὁ Ἰησοῦς) εἶχε(ν). The phrase παρὰ σοί "with you" becomes παρὰ τοῦ θεοῦ ("with God") so that we can see who all of the pronouns refer to.
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