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Judaism: Genesis 17 & circumcision
#1
Genesis 17 10 This is My covenant, which you are to keep, between Me and you and your offspring after you: Every one of your males must be circumcised. 11 You must circumcise the flesh of your foreskin to serve as a sign of the covenant between Me and you. 12 Throughout your generations, every male among you at eight days old is to be circumcised.

My covenant will be marked in your flesh as an everlasting covenant." 

I understand the everlasting covenant is for Jews and they observe it, even though Abraham was not a Jew.

What if a Christian or a Muslim has been circumcised -- does that mean that they are a part of the covenant of circumcision?

Thanks.
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#2
It's a logical fallacy to assume so.

All members of a certain covenant are circumcised.
Muslims are circumcised.
Therefore, Muslims are members of that same covenant.

It's an undistributed middle term.

All dogs are mammals.
Cats are mammals.
Therefore, cats are dogs.

That's the same logical shape, and it's obviously wrong.
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#3
(04-16-2019, 04:47 PM)Jason wrote: It's a logical fallacy to assume so.

All members of a certain covenant are circumcised.
Muslims are circumcised.
Therefore, Muslims are members of that same covenant.

It's an undistributed middle term.

All dogs are mammals.
Cats are mammals.
Therefore, cats are dogs.

That's the same logical shape, and it's obviously wrong.

OK, thanks.

I think it important to mention that the covenant went through Isaac, meaning the Jews.

I remember having a conversation with a Jew on CARM and told him that a Muslim told me that Muslims are circumcised in order "to get into the covenant."  The Jew said that only way that could happen would be if the Muslim converted to Judaism and then if the Muslim had been circumcised previously he would have to be re-circumcised with a knife of needle that would cause a little blood.

Do you agree?
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#4
See Islam and male circumcision of boys.

Judaism gets to define/describe it's 'covenant' as it wishes. Still, it's worth noting that it was practices in Egypt long before Israelite ethnogenesis.
To be is to stand for. - Abraham Joshua Heschel
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#5
(04-16-2019, 06:14 PM)nili wrote: See Islam and male circumcision of boys.

Judaism gets to define/describe it's 'covenant' as it wishes. Still, it's worth noting that it was practices in Egypt long before Israelite ethnogenesis.

Thanks.
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#6
(04-16-2019, 05:04 PM)George wrote: The Jew said that only way that could happen would be if the Muslim converted to Judaism and then if the Muslim had been circumcised previously he would have to be re-circumcised with a knife of needle that would cause a little blood.

Do you agree?

Yes, I agree.

In Judaism, there must be an intention to fulfill a commandment in order for the commandment to be considered fulfilled. If a child was circumcised for whatever reason, it was not done with the kavanah (intention) of entering into the covenant from Sinai. It was performed for whatever reason (because Muslims do it; because Americans do it; whatever).

In order for it to be considered the rite of entering the covenant between God and the Jewish people, one would have to under what is called a hatafat dam brit, which is a symbolic circumcision performed by piercing the scar tissue from the original circumcision and collecting blood (on a piece of gauze, for instance) to be presented before a Jewish religious court (beit din) for the specific purpose of entering the covenant.

Circumcision may be performed for any reason at all. Only circumcision that is performed with the kavanah of upholding the Torah regulation (and this is demonstrated by the recital of a blessing that expresses intention) is counted as the specific type of required circumcision.
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