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Kosher pork
#11
(06-10-2019, 10:08 PM)Jude86 wrote:
(06-10-2019, 09:48 PM)RabbiO wrote:
(05-31-2019, 09:03 AM)Jude86 wrote: This is particularly interesting............

And yet on the other hand: COME ON! It's clearly cheating! XD HaShem didn't spell everything out for us in the Torah. In Exodus 23:19 where He prohibits the mixing of milk and meat, He said, "Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk." That isn't taken to mean that He was speaking exclusively to goats and lambs, but applied to all clean animals. In this same way, where He prohibits the eating the pork, there is the letter of His law and then there's the spirit of its intention; and I cannot imagine that this workaround would be in any way in keeping with the teaching that's been handed down.
You are certainly entitled to hold whatever views you have on this matter. However, speaking frankly, to me as a Jew and as a rabbi, your chutzpah as a Christian in making determinations about Jewish scripture and Jewish law are rather off putting.

My apologies, I was just having a back and forth with myself. I intended no disrespect. I think I should probably leave.

No Jude, please do not leave as your contributions to the forum are welcome.
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#12
(06-10-2019, 09:48 PM)RabbiO wrote:
(05-31-2019, 09:03 AM)Jude86 wrote: This is particularly interesting............

And yet on the other hand: COME ON! It's clearly cheating! XD HaShem didn't spell everything out for us in the Torah. In Exodus 23:19 where He prohibits the mixing of milk and meat, He said, "Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk." That isn't taken to mean that He was speaking exclusively to goats and lambs, but applied to all clean animals. In this same way, where He prohibits the eating the pork, there is the letter of His law and then there's the spirit of its intention; and I cannot imagine that this workaround would be in any way in keeping with the teaching that's been handed down.
You are certainly entitled to hold whatever views you have on this matter. However, speaking frankly, to me as a Jew and as a rabbi, your chutzpah as a Christian in making determinations about Jewish scripture and Jewish law are rather off putting.

RabbiO,

Maybe you should explain why you think it is off putting instead of making Jude feel like an unwanted Christain here.

As you know, Christians have their own interpretations of the Hebrew bible (as are there many different opinions between the Jews). Even though we may not always agree, I don't see where Jude was doing something that was meant to irk us.
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#13
(06-10-2019, 10:20 PM)searchinmyroots wrote:
(06-10-2019, 09:48 PM)RabbiO wrote:
(05-31-2019, 09:03 AM)Jude86 wrote: This is particularly interesting............

And yet on the other hand: COME ON! It's clearly cheating! XD HaShem didn't spell everything out for us in the Torah. In Exodus 23:19 where He prohibits the mixing of milk and meat, He said, "Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk." That isn't taken to mean that He was speaking exclusively to goats and lambs, but applied to all clean animals. In this same way, where He prohibits the eating the pork, there is the letter of His law and then there's the spirit of its intention; and I cannot imagine that this workaround would be in any way in keeping with the teaching that's been handed down.
You are certainly entitled to hold whatever views you have on this matter. However, speaking frankly, to me as a Jew and as a rabbi, your chutzpah as a Christian in making determinations about Jewish scripture and Jewish law are rather off putting.

RabbiO,

Maybe you should explain why you think it is off putting instead of making Jude feel like an unwanted Christain here.

Maybe you should be more careful in interpreting what is being said. To say "your chutzpah ... is off putting" is to make an honest statement about how one feels when so confronted. Are you claiming that he does not have the right to hold such feelings? On what grounds? Why so disrespectful of those feelings? That, too, is off putting.
To be is to stand for. - Abraham Joshua Heschel
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#14
(06-10-2019, 10:49 PM)nili wrote:
(06-10-2019, 10:20 PM)searchinmyroots wrote:
(06-10-2019, 09:48 PM)RabbiO wrote:
(05-31-2019, 09:03 AM)Jude86 wrote: This is particularly interesting............

And yet on the other hand: COME ON! It's clearly cheating! XD HaShem didn't spell everything out for us in the Torah. In Exodus 23:19 where He prohibits the mixing of milk and meat, He said, "Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk." That isn't taken to mean that He was speaking exclusively to goats and lambs, but applied to all clean animals. In this same way, where He prohibits the eating the pork, there is the letter of His law and then there's the spirit of its intention; and I cannot imagine that this workaround would be in any way in keeping with the teaching that's been handed down.
You are certainly entitled to hold whatever views you have on this matter. However, speaking frankly, to me as a Jew and as a rabbi, your chutzpah as a Christian in making determinations about Jewish scripture and Jewish law are rather off putting.

RabbiO,

Maybe you should explain why you think it is off putting instead of making Jude feel like an unwanted Christain here.

Maybe you should be more careful in interpreting what is being said. To say "your chutzpah ... is off putting" is to make an honest statement about how one feels when so confronted. Are you claiming that he does not have the right to hold such feelings? On what grounds? Why so disrespectful of those feelings? That, too, is off putting.

I'm just saying he could explain himself as to why he feels that way, how he felt confronted.

Of course one can feel a certain way, it's how one reacts that counts.

Chutzpah is generally associated with meaning audacity, insolence, impudence, gall, brazen nerve, effrontery, incredible guts, presumption and arrogance (according to the Chabad website). 

I don't think that was the intent of Jude's post.

Chutzpah can mean a good thing, but, unless I am mistaken, I don't think that is what RabbiO had in mind.

This forum is open to all people from all walks of life. We can disagree about things, have strong opinions and different ways of looking or interpreting things, that's okay.

But we need to try and be civil with our responses unless it is something that was meant to directly insult another person.

As I said previously, I don't think that was Jude's intent.
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#15
I mean, I can understand why it would be offputting. It's because I'm an outsider having an opinion on something that, in all likelihood, he feels I have no business having an opinion on. I understand the frustrating sense that I have no licence to have an opinion on how the Jewish religion's opinion on whatever matter should be.

It could be as offensive to me if someone here said, "Well, all Christians believe this, that, and the other thing." Like, in real life discussions that I've had with other Christians who tell me that Catholics aren't Christians because of XYZ. I would think to myself, "This person has no business telling me what MY OWN RELIGION believes. He is no authority, and he has unmitigated gall telling me what *I* believe."

But again, I didn't intend to make a declaration, I thought that I was just having a discussion with someone. That's how I meant for it to come across.

It wasn't my intention to barge in and make a determination "about Jewish scripture and Jewish law" as RabbiO said. I wasn't "laying down the law" or making a pronouncement like a king. I was just trying to have a friendly discussion. Hence the emojis and the more informal style of writing. I understand that as a Christian, I have no business telling a Jew what he or she should think. That isn't what I meant to come across in anything that I said.

The reason why I'm considering leaving isn't to do with me feeling unwelcome and more to do with the fact that I feel that I'm being disruptive. I worry that just about everything--even the most well-intentioned thing (especially concerning scripture)--is going to be read with a double-meaning under. Like, "He's a Christian, what's he REALLY saying?"

And then there's the opinion that I have no business commenting on Judaism at all, which is also understandable, but it was my sincere intention to have an informal discussion among friends rather than to cause an issue. I mean, maybe we just need the equivalent of a safety word--certain no go areas where people would feel uncomfortable with me speaking or commenting, at all.
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#16
Thank you for your post Jude.

No, we can usually (not all the time) tell who comes to the forum with an agenda and who is sincere with their thoughts and emotions.

So I know I myself do not think you are posting with a double meaning.

And yes, you can have an informal discussion expressing your views.

Many people come here to ask questions as they don't really understand Judaism. I'm sure there are those that heard or read things that may or may not be very accurate.

I guess the best way to express oneself about other people's beliefs might be to include words like - "in my opinion", or "I see things this way because.....", "I thought..............".

This way it doesn't seem like one is coming on too strong trying to tell someone else about what they believe.

Please understand I'm not trying to make it difficult, just as respectful as possible.

And of course there will be times when we stray off the path, I know I do!.

The important part is to find the road again!
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#17
I know. And again, I'm sorry.
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#18
(06-10-2019, 10:08 PM)Jude86 wrote:
(06-10-2019, 09:48 PM)RabbiO wrote:
(05-31-2019, 09:03 AM)Jude86 wrote: This is particularly interesting............

And yet on the other hand: COME ON! It's clearly cheating! XD HaShem didn't spell everything out for us in the Torah. In Exodus 23:19 where He prohibits the mixing of milk and meat, He said, "Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk." That isn't taken to mean that He was speaking exclusively to goats and lambs, but applied to all clean animals. In this same way, where He prohibits the eating the pork, there is the letter of His law and then there's the spirit of its intention; and I cannot imagine that this workaround would be in any way in keeping with the teaching that's been handed down.
You are certainly entitled to hold whatever views you have on this matter. However, speaking frankly, to me as a Jew and as a rabbi, your chutzpah as a Christian in making determinations about Jewish scripture and Jewish law are rather off putting.

My apologies, I was just having a back and forth with myself. I intended no disrespect. I think I should probably leave.
No need to leave, every one is free to express their views here.
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#19
(06-10-2019, 10:08 PM)Jude86 wrote: My apologies, I was just having a back and forth with myself. I intended no disrespect. I think I should probably leave.


I certainly did not mean to imply that you are not welcome on the forum. If I had meant to say that I can assure you I would have said it in plain English with no ambiguity.

I will say, however, that when your desire is to have private conversation with yourself - I do it all the time when I'm working things through- it might be wiser not to post it on a forum where the expectation is that a post is meant as both observation and an invitation to participate in dialogue. 

I am also not troubled by the fact that we approach things from different religious perspectives. Heck, there are differing perspectives within Judaism, so much so that I have commented more than once that not only is there a need for interfaith dialogue, but for intrafaith dialogue as well. Because Judaism is not monolithic there are often times when one cannot provide THE Jewish view on a issue, only A Jewish view. 

A problem develops when one approaches an issue not simply from the perspective of one's own religion perspective, but also makes presumptions about the perspectives of the other person' religion, without really having an understanding of that other religion. 

The Baal Shem Tov, whose disciples created the modern Chasidic movements, taught that if a person on the street passed a building where the windows were closed but the curtains were open, where musicians were not visible because of the angle, and the people inside were engaged in vigorous dance, the passerby would think the dancers were crazy.

Let's see what type of conversations we have in the future.
בקש שלום ורדפהו
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#20
(06-13-2019, 07:44 PM)RabbiO wrote:
(06-10-2019, 10:08 PM)Jude86 wrote: My apologies, I was just having a back and forth with myself. I intended no disrespect. I think I should probably leave.


I certainly did not mean to imply that you are not welcome on the forum. If I had meant to say that I can assure you I would have said it in plain English with no ambiguity.

I will say, however, that when your desire is to have private conversation with yourself - I do it all the time when I'm working things through- it might be wiser not to post it on a forum where the expectation is that a post is meant as both observation and an invitation to participate in dialogue. 

I am also not troubled by the fact that we approach things from different religious perspectives. Heck, there are differing perspectives within Judaism, so much so that I have commented more than once that not only is there a need for interfaith dialogue, but for intrafaith dialogue as well. Because Judaism is not monolithic there are often times when one cannot provide THE Jewish view on a issue, only A Jewish view. 

A problem develops when one approaches an issue not simply from the perspective of one's own religion perspective, but also makes presumptions about the perspectives of the other person' religion, without really having an understanding of that other religion. 

The Baal Shem Tov, whose disciples created the modern Chasidic movements, taught that if a person on the street passed a building where the windows were closed but the curtains were open, where musicians were not visible because of the angle, and the people inside were engaged in vigorous dance, the passerby would think the dancers were crazy.

Let's see what type of conversations we have in the future.

Well, it wasn't a back and forth that people weren't free to comment on which is why I published it. If anything, what I would say is that my intention is to try and understand Judaism and Jewish law from the Jewish perspective. You can very well consider the back and forth as my attempt to try and understand what the different perspectives on this could be. I'm sorry that it was offputting, and I'm sorry that it came off that I was making definitive declarations. I mean, I guess that's why I added in the informal language and the emojis. I think that there's a lot to be said for that lack of tone that was able to carry through in what I said.

Again, all I can say is that I'm sorry you found it off-putting. I have to keep in mind that you don't know me in person and aren't, therefore, necessarily aware of my tone nor my intentions when I say the things I say. But I did intend for my comments to be made public, and then to be corrected if they needed correction. Like, "Well actually, that's not . . ." or whatever. I see now, reading back, how  my comments might have been interpreted as making declarations concerning Jewish law, but that wasn't my intention at all. I just feel I need to redouble that point: I wasn't intending to make any declarations.

And I understand, because, as I mentioned, I know what it feels like to feel as though someone misunderstands your religion or makes presumptions about what you believe without really knowing the inner workings. So I get it.

I just sometimes forget that I'm talking to strangers who are unaware of my intentions and who cannot necessarily read me.
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