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Problems with missionaries
#21
(07-20-2020, 10:30 PM)searchinmyroots Wrote: ImAHebrew,

No, I don't have an HTML editor, sorry about that.

The best verses I use are usually ones like II Chronicles 7:14 -

"And My people, upon whom My name is called, humble themselves and pray and seek My presence and repent of their evil ways, I shall hear from heaven and forgive their sin and heal their land."

and others that share that same message.

It clearly shows we don't need to shed blood to be forgiven and we have a direct connection with the Almighty.

If they don't change the subject or jump to another verse (rather quickly I may add), I've heard them say - "Oh, but that's the Old Testament".

No kidding!

Shalom Searchinmyroots, that's ok about the editor, I'll survive. And yeah, you are right on about forgiveness, and here is one I always use, and there is NO shedding of blood here either:

Yechezkel Chapter 18

21 And if the wicked man repent of all his sins that he has committed and keeps all My laws and executes justice and righteousness, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

22 All his transgressions that he has committed shall not be remembered regarding him: through his righteousness that he has done he shall live.

23 Do I desire the death of the wicked? says the Lord G-d. Is it not rather in his repenting of his ways that he may live?

Another one of their tricks is to tell us that they have a substituted righteousness that saves them. More or less, their "savior" kept all of the commands for them in their stead and his righteousness is transferred to them and that saves them. I always bring up these two verses when they tell me that:

Yechezkel Chapter 14

14 Now should these three men be in its midst-[namely] Noah, Daniel, and Job-they would save themselves with their righteousness, says the Lord G-d.

20 And Noah, Daniel, and Job are in its midst, as I live, says the Lord G-d, if they will save a son or a daughter; they with their righteousness would save themselves.

It is very obvious that our Creator is not in the business of substituting righteousness, even if it is for a close family member. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.
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#22
I recently listened to a crapshow of a debate between James White and Lee Baker on the reliability of the New Testament, and Mr. Baker brought up how the New Testament quotes the Tanakh... and he talked quite a bit about Isaiah's servant songs. Here's the video, if you're interested in watching, though it's long. He begins to talk about Isaiah 53 in the 54th minute of the video.



I'm bothered that Mr. Baker didn't hold Mr. White accountable for the things that he was adding into the text. White says suddenly, after quoting several parts of the text, "he will justify the many by what he does." By what he does? It says "by his knowledge," not "by what he does"! In what way was Jesus ever claimed to justify anyone by his KNOWLEDGE? Further, he just blasted through "he will see his offspring." In what way did Jesus have offspring that he was enabled to see by "making his soul a sin offering" (which is also not what the text says)?

When you say "corrupted missionaries," maybe you mean "deceitful missionaries." Normally, "corrupted" speaks to "corruption" and the taking of bribes and illegal moneys. I don't think that missionaries are out there taking ill-gotten gain, but they certainly deceive people when dealing with the texts of the Tanakh. With them, it seems to be "the ends justify the means." As long as they can convince someone to believe in Jesus, who cares if they are dealing honestly with the text?
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#23
Nothing new under the sun!
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#24
(07-21-2020, 08:40 AM)Jason Wrote: I recently listened to a crapshow of a debate between James White and Lee Baker on the reliability of the New Testament, and Mr. Baker brought up how the New Testament quotes the Tanakh... and he talked quite a bit about Isaiah's servant songs. Here's the video, if you're interested in watching, though it's long. He begins to talk about Isaiah 53 in the 54th minute of the video.



I'm bothered that Mr. Baker didn't hold Mr. White accountable for the things that he was adding into the text. White says suddenly, after quoting several parts of the text, "he will justify the many by what he does." By what he does? It says "by his knowledge," not "by what he does"! In what way was Jesus ever claimed to justify anyone by his KNOWLEDGE? Further, he just blasted through "he will see his offspring." In what way did Jesus have offspring that he was enabled to see by "making his soul a sin offering" (which is also not what the text says)?

When you say "corrupted missionaries," maybe you mean "deceitful missionaries." Normally, "corrupted" speaks to "corruption" and the taking of bribes and illegal moneys. I don't think that missionaries are out there taking ill-gotten gain, but they certainly deceive people when dealing with the texts of the Tanakh. With them, it seems to be "the ends justify the means." As long as they can convince someone to believe in Jesus, who cares if they are dealing honestly with the text?

I listened twice and that was tough.  I thought James White had the better oratory skills allowing for assumptions and premises that went unchallenged, while Mr. Baker was the honest one and although he did well enough he may have lacked the tools for this type of debate. He certainly had the passion.

  Agreed Jason, it was a crapshow and a disappointment to not hear a stronger argument against James Whites take of Isaiah 53. Frustrating also was to hear him dismiss as irrelevant the other places in the Servant Songs where the servant is referred to as Israel when it was asked what he thought the audience may think of that.  I would also have liked to have seen him challenged on Isaiah 7:14 and the Hebrew words for Almah and Betulah.  He skillfully jumped to the Greek word Parthenos, smoothing his way into a discussion of the Septuagint. His oratory skills allowed him to dodge where someone with a stronger grasp of the Hebrew and Tanach could have countered.   He made many assertions that went unchallenged in the debate. Dual prophecies are an easy way out and for avoiding historical reality.
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#25
(07-22-2020, 12:49 AM)Dana Wrote: I listened twice and that was tough.

You're stronger than me. I only made it through once! It really was hard to listen to, on both sides of the debate. James White is so smug in his "knowledge," but he pronounces both Greek and Hebrew words in probably the worst possible way. I don't know if he does it intentionally or if he just doesn't care. Lee Baker, on the other hand, has the basics right, but he doesn't have the depth of knowledge to hold his own against someone like White, who considers himself an expert on biblical languages.

(07-22-2020, 12:49 AM)Dana Wrote: I thought James White had the better oratory skills allowing for assumptions and premises that went unchallenged, while Mr. Baker was the honest one and although he did well enough he may have lacked the tools for this type of debate. He certainly had the passion.

The problem is that he was debating passion instead of sense.

(07-22-2020, 12:49 AM)Dana Wrote: Agreed Jason, it was a crapshow and a disappointment to not hear a stronger argument against James Whites take of Isaiah 53. Frustrating also was to hear him dismiss as irrelevant the other places in the Servant Songs where the servant is referred to as Israel when it was asked what he thought the audience may think of that.

Honestly, if the text itself is Messianic, it could be that עַבְדִּי could refer to two different people or characters at different times. In the book of Joshua, Moses is called עֶ֫בֶד ה׳ in one chapter, and then in another chapter it is Joshua who is called עֶ֫בֶד ה׳. If context demanded it, we could interpret Isaiah 53 as speaking of a different servant. The kicker is that context doesn't demand it. In fact, it speaks against Jesus as the "servant" there.

(07-22-2020, 12:49 AM)Dana Wrote: I would also have liked to have seen him challenged on Isaiah 7:14 and the Hebrew words for Almah and Betulah. He skillfully jumped to the Greek word Parthenos, smoothing his way into a discussion of the Septuagint. His oratory skills allowed him to dodge where someone with a stronger grasp of the Hebrew and Tanach could have countered.   He made many assertions that went unchallenged in the debate. Dual prophecies are an easy way out and for avoiding historical reality.

If I had to hear almah and bethulah from him one more time, I was going to pull out my hair. Why pronounce words like that?! Yuck!
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#26
(07-21-2020, 08:40 AM)Jason Wrote: When you say "corrupted missionaries," maybe you mean "deceitful missionaries." Normally, "corrupted" speaks to "corruption" and the taking of bribes and illegal moneys. I don't think that missionaries are out there taking ill-gotten gain, but they certainly deceive people when dealing with the texts of the Tanakh. With them, it seems to be "the ends justify the means." As long as they can convince someone to believe in Jesus, who cares if they are dealing honestly with the text?

Shabbat Shalom Jason, thank you for the comments, and let me try to explain why I used the word "corrupted missionaries."  We have an example of how "corruption" occurs THROUGH or BY "blandishments/flatteries."

(JPS)(Dan 11:32) And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall be corrupt by blandishments; but the people that know their G-d shall show strength, and prevail.

To me, these "corrupt missionaries" corrupt THROUGH flatteries, as they do wickedly against the covenant.  In the same way, the daughters of the people of Israel did "corrupt" by falsely prophesying out of their OWN hearts, and they did so for "handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread," and in the same way the "corrupt missionaries" do what they do for their OWN gain.

(JPS)(Eze 13:17 - 13:19)
  (17) Likewise, thou son of man, set thy face against the daughters of thy people, which prophesy out of their own heart; and prophesy thou against them,
  (18) And say, Thus saith the Lord G-d; Woe to the [women] that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of my people, and will ye save the souls alive [that come] unto you?
  (19) And will ye pollute me among my people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to my people that hear [your] lies?

I don't know, maybe I should change what I call them, but in any case, what they teach and preach is a corruption of what G-d desires.  Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.
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#27
I don't know what a "blandishment" is. The JPS actually reads:

Daniel 11:32 (NJPS): "He will flatter with smooth words those who act wickedly toward the covenant, but the people devoted to their God will stand firm."

The JPS that you're quoting is not the real JPS translation. There was a translation put out by the Jewish Publication Society in 1917, which was very KJV-ish. The same JPS released a completely redone translation (with no affinity for the KJV) in 1985, which was released in its second edition in 1999. It is best to just forget about the JPS 1917, or at least label it as JPS 1917 and not simply as JPS, since it is no longer the JPS translation. Technically, the NJPS (New JPS) is the JPS translation today.

Even if we were to use the translation you provided, though, what makes you think that the word "corrupt" there refers to missionaries? Who is the "he" in this verse, and why do you think it means "missionaries"?

I feel like "corrupt missionaries" reminds me of "crooked Hillary." Is it not enough to say that you are opposed to missionaries? Most of us in this online community have real problems with missionaries and their activities. I just don't see how "corrupt" is a good word to add to their name. Especially, since they are not "corrupt" most of the time. They really believe that what they are doing is in service of the truth, and they think that they have the truth that we are lacking. They aren't accepting bribes or somehow living in hypocrisy toward their own faith (as far as I know).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Jewish...ica_Tanakh

Text of the NJPS can be found online here: https://www.sefaria.org/texts/Tanakh
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#28
(07-25-2020, 04:19 PM)Jason Wrote: I don't know what a "blandishment" is. The JPS actually reads:

Daniel 11:32 (NJPS): "He will flatter with smooth words those who act wickedly toward the covenant, but the people devoted to their God will stand firm."

The JPS that you're quoting is not the real JPS translation. There was a translation put out by the Jewish Publication Society in 1917, which was very KJV-ish. The same JPS released a completely redone translation (with no affinity for the KJV) in 1985, which was released in its second edition in 1999. It is best to just forget about the JPS 1917, or at least label it as JPS 1917 and not simply as JPS, since it is no longer the JPS translation. Technically, the NJPS (New JPS) is the JPS translation today.

Even if we were to use the translation you provided, though, what makes you think that the word "corrupt" there refers to missionaries? Who is the "he" in this verse, and why do you think it means "missionaries"?

I feel like "corrupt missionaries" reminds me of "crooked Hillary." Is it not enough to say that you are opposed to missionaries? Most of us in this online community have real problems with missionaries and their activities. I just don't see how "corrupt" is a good word to add to their name. Especially, since they are not "corrupt" most of the time. They really believe that what they are doing is in service of the truth, and they think that they have the truth that we are lacking. They aren't accepting bribes or somehow living in hypocrisy toward their own faith (as far as I know).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Jewish...ica_Tanakh

Text of the NJPS can be found online here: https://www.sefaria.org/texts/Tanakh

Shabbat Shalom Jason, whether it is "corrupted missionaries" or "deceitful missionaries," I really don't see much of a difference.  Even in the NT, they recognized this:

  (Jude 1:10) But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

  (2Pet 2:19) While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

  (2Pet 2:12) But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

So even the writings that the "corrupted/deceitful missionaries" use, they even admit to corruption.  But if you do not like me to use the word "corrupted" to describe the missionaries, I will refrain and just use "deceitful" or "delusional" missionaries, if you prefer.  Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.
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#29
Shalom Everyone, another one of the missionaries tricks is to tell us that their "savior" accomplished the "sign" of being in the tomb for 3 days and 3 nights. Hmm? What you should ask them is HOW do you count from Friday right at sunset (placed in the tomb), and then supposedly rising on Sunday morning at sunrise? They will try to tell you that it is a Jewish custom that if any part of a day is counted, then that would be a whole day and night...baloney! So tell them no, it is only 1 day and 2 nights...sorry, but YOUR sign fails simple math. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.
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#30
I don't know if it's just me, but it seems that missionaries have really calmed down in the past years. I never hear anything. Am I just disconnected? I used to hear the nonsense all the time.
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