The original sin

[Peergint]

Peergint,

Seeing your comments above about irks me to the point of just asking you to leave. If you cannot control yourself in your attempts to convert people, this isn't a forum for you. We do not allow proselytization. If you don't like it, you know where the 'delete my account' button is.

I'm all about conversation, but when people come here and violate our way of functioning and then cry foul... sorry, no compassion from me. You don't need to be here, and we don't need to entertain you. So, either you abide by our long-standing decision not to let people presume the truth of a religion other than Judaism on our JEWISH forum, or go some place else. That's a rule that isn't going to change.

Jason, far be it for me to try to convince or preach or proselytise or convert anyone and I'm sorry you see it that way.
I was simply trying to "converse" with people here to ask questions or put a point across so that from a Jewish perspective you can answer and visa versa. Isn't that how we learn, by asking questions and putting our points of view across? I only wanted to understand, nothing more nothing less.
Why are you so angry at me for simply asking questions and replying to questions to me?
I don't want you to entertain me, that's not what I joined for and I'm not that shallow.
No compassion? Who's asking for any? I think you seriously misunderstand where I'm coming from.
Would be nice if you would bare with me and show a little patience and not be so hard hearted.

[Jason]

When someone comes to a Jewish forum and all they have to offer by way of discussion is Isaiah 53 and the concept of original sin, they aren't interested in learning anything about Judaism. That much is self-evident.

[Peergint]

When someone comes to a Jewish forum and all they have to offer by way of discussion is Isaiah 53 and the concept of original sin, they aren't interested in learning anything about Judaism. That much is self-evident.

The evidence is that you are very quick to judge from relatively few posts I've made.
I have more things to discuss, but I'm getting the feeling your mind is very closed towards anything you disagree with.
It's as though you think I'm against you. I'm not, far from it. Israel are God's chosen people and I worship your God. How is this being against you?
I only want to learn why you don't believe in Jesus. I'm sure you've had to answer this question many times, whereas this is my first time of asking anyone?
Judaism is not the only religion that rejects Him, there are many and I only seek to know why from Jewish people themselves.
I was hoping you'd accommodate me just a little.

[Jason]

I only want to learn why you don't believe in Jesus.

And therein is the problem. All evangelists want to do is force us to talk about Jesus over and over again. You have yet to determine that Jesus every existed, let alone that he rose from the dead. This is what makes your questions annoying. The internet has enough information for you to seek without trying to occupy us to make us defend Judaism against Christian claims. You might not think that this is offensive, but that's because you're the one making the push. We're not interested in it.

If you desire is to put us on the defensive and make people here prove that Jesus wasn't the Messiah, you've been provided with enough information already. If your only question for this forum (the only thing you want to know) is about Jesus, then you've outlived your interest in this forum and can move on.

[Peergint]

I only want to learn why you don't believe in Jesus.

And therein is the problem. All evangelists want to do is force us to talk about Jesus over and over again. You have yet to determine that Jesus every existed, let alone that he rose from the dead. This is what makes your questions annoying. The internet has enough information for you to seek without trying to occupy us to make us defend Judaism against Christian claims. You might not think that this is offensive, but that's because you're the one making the push. We're not interested in it.

If you desire is to put us on the defensive and make people here prove that Jesus wasn't the Messiah, you've been provided with enough information already. If your only question for this forum (the only thing you want to know) is about Jesus, then you've outlived your interest in this forum and can move on.

Well that just goes to prove my point.
I'm not wanted here so I'm getting out.
You can do what you want without any input from me.
I've never known anything like this before... ever.

[Jason]

So that others are aware, the user contacted me via email and asked me to delete his account, which I was quick to do.

I hope other users will understand that we're not interested in stifling discussion, but those who come under the guise of wanting to understand us, but their only expressed desire is to see what arguments we put up to their religion or how we can defend ourselves against converting to their religion - such people will be opposed and will not find a comfortable place here.

I'm sure you know that already, but I wanted to be clear what's going on here. I really hope you feel comfortable to ask and engage in every way, except in the pursuit of converting Jews to Christianity or to any other religion besides Judaism.

Every website in the world allows Jews to be put on the defensive, but that will not be done here. We do not need to prove why we are not Christians. That isn't how things will be carried out on this forum.

Regards,
Jason

[searchinmyroots]

1- Save ourselves from what? We can most certainly change ourselves. God's judgement on the world for it's sin. Do you believe there will be a day of reckoning? Can we change ourselves so that we don't sin? If we can, fine but what about the sins we have already committed? I agree we can change ourselves but I believe only to a degree. This is where the original sin comes in. I believe we are born with a sinful nature. We just cannot help ourselves. We are tempted and we sin. We are convicted by the law are we not? Could the Israelites stop sinning, even after they were given the ten commandment? When Moses was still up the mountain being given the commandments by God, they were already convincing Aaron to make for themselves a golden calf to worship. Even though they were and Jews today are God's chosen people, we all, Gentiles alike are still sinning and the world is a very dangerous place because of it. Where is the love, patience, kindness, compassion, gentleness, faithfulness, joy and peace? It is very scarce and when God sees a wicked world like this is, what must He be thinking?

Where does it say we have to be perfect? It doesn't! G-d tells us in the Hebrew bible that if we admit to our sins, repent. pray and strive not to do it again, we can be forgiven. I believe what G-d tells us, not what the Christian bible says.

Again, yes we have a sinful nature but we also have a nature to be good, to have compassion and helps others and  to love to mention a few.

Again, we are not "convicted" by the law, we see it as our guide on how to change ourselves, it is perfect.



2 - Well that's strange, since when does a lamb sin? And to repeat, the Passover has nothing to do with sin. It's true, lambs don't sin, but neither do calves, doves, goats etc.  Wasn't a goat used as a scapegoat and sent out of the camp as a sin offering to take away the sins of the people? There were very many sacrifices for sin. 
Leviticus 16: 7-10. 7 He shall take the two goats and present them before the Lord at the door of the tabernacle of meeting. 8 Then Aaron shall cast lots for the two goats: one lot for the Lord and the other lot for the scapegoat. 9 And Aaron shall bring the goat on which the Lord’s lot fell, and offer it as a sin offering. 10 But the goat on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat shall be presented alive before the Lord, to make atonement upon it, and to let it go as the scapegoat into the wilderness.
I will do more research on the Passover lamb subject.




That's correct, none of the animals sin. The sacrifice was symbolic. But that is a diversion. You said the Passover lamb relates to Jesus because it is without blemish. If you understood the context of the verses, you would see that the Israelite's slaughtered one of the Egyptian gods. It wasn't a sin sacrifice as you believe Jesus was. So if you believe Jesus is the Passover lamb, you then believe he was an Egyptian god that was killed to show them who the real G-d was.

3- Not sure of what your point is. There were several covenants made in the Hebrew bible. I was simply saying that God, being perfect is capable of keeping His part of the covenant and we are not. God doesn't and cannot sin, but we do everyday, whether by thought, word, or deed. That's all I was saying.
 

Okay, that makes sense, I agree. Well, not sure about the "thought" part though. If we don't carryout a sinful thought, we didn't really commit the sin. I know Christianity thinks differently though.

4- If I'm not mistaken, this was already discussed. G-d does not require a sacrifice. There are many, many passages in the Hebrew bible where people are forgiven for sin without a sacrifice and we are specifically told how to do so! Would you please show me one or two examples of this so that I can see it and understand it?

I'll give you 3 to start - Ezekiel 18:21,22, Isaiah 1:16-18 and II Chronicles 7:14

I ask you, how were the Jews forgiven for their sins during the time between the 1st and 2nd Temple? In Jesus time they were offering sacrifices in the temple, which I think was the second temple. Please advise if I am incorrect on this. Weren't the sacrifices sin offerings as well as burnt offerings?

I don't think you understand the question so I explain - There was a time of 70 years between the 1st and 2nd Temple. That means there was nowhere to bring sin offerings. So how were the people of Israel forgiven for their sins if they couldn't bring a sacrifice? Daniel and other prophets lived during that time (I think Jeremiah was another), Were they not forgiven for their sins? Or was there another way they were forgiven?

5- All you have to do is read Psalm 19 and 119, the longest Psalm by King David and you'll get a very good picture of how the law/instructions are held in very high regard, it doesn't convict us as Christianity teaches. Are you then not living according to the laws of Moses, except for sacrifices? You still keep the sabbath which is a lasting covenant isn't it? If not, which laws are you obeying? You still keep the passover don't you with unleavened bread? Am I wrong in my statement?

No, you're not wrong but I don't see the point. These things don't convict us, we do them in honor to G-d.

For example - 

Psalm 19:8 The law of the Lord is perfect, restoring the soul; the testimony of the Lord is faithful, making the simple one wise.

9- The orders of the Lord are upright, causing the heart to rejoice; the commandment of the Lord is clear, enlightening the eyes.

11- They are to be desired more than gold, yea more than much fine gold, and are sweeter than honey and drippings of honeycombs.
Couldn't agree more with these scriptures.

Of course there is grace as well, we see that in many places in the Hebrew bible where G-d forgives people for the only reason that He waned to.
Certainly cannot deny this.
Contrary to the teachings of Christianity that our works are useless, G-d tells us in the Hebrew bible that it is our actions and keeping His commandments that count. Deuteronomy 6:24,25 for example - 

24 - And the Lord commanded us to perform all these statutes, to fear the Lord, our God, for our good all the days, to keep us alive, as of this day.

25 - And it will be for our merit that we keep to observe all these commandments before the Lord, our God, as He has commanded us.
Very good scriptures and I cannot argue against what God has said. 

However, how do you explain the blessings for obedience and curses for disobedience in Deuteronomy 28? Aren't the curses punishment for disobedience?

What do you mean by explain? It's pretty straight forward - obey and you receive the blessings, don't obey and you receive the curses. But what counts is what we do when we fall. Do we continue to do the same sin over and over again? Or do we see the error of our ways, try to change and not do it again? 

Why did Christianity change what G-d taught us here and in many other places?? I don't think Christianity changed what God taught you. It's just that Christians believe in a New Covenant (Testament) and that Jesus fulfilled the Old Covenant (Testament). I also think it is a different perspective. Am I right in saying you guys don't accept any other translation or interpretation that differs from the Hebrew Bible?

You may not believe so but it's quite evident if you compare what G-d tells us in the Hebrew bible and what the Christian bible claims. Which is it, a Covenant or a Testament? If you are referring to Jeremiah 31, then there is a problem there for you. Besides saying that each man shall die from his own sins, it tells us who the new covenant is being made with - The house of Israel and the house of Judah. It also says G-d will put His Torah (law) in our hearts (the house of Israel to be specific), yes, that same law Christians say convict us. And that no man shall have to teach thy neighbor for the whole world will know G-d. No, not at a later date, a second coming, but when this new covenant happens. Which obviously hasn't happened yet!

We don't accept anything except what G-d gave to us, the Hebrew bible. Just as I don't think you accept the Book of Mormon or the Jehovah Witnesses.

There are many bibles, in my case I believe the NKJV is the most accurate, but I will read others if I don't understand something so that I get a better understanding through the way things are written.

Well, that's a problem with Christianity, too many "sources". The many original sources are written in Greek. Do you understand Greek?

The Hebrew bible has been pretty much the same for thousands of years.

[searchinmyroots]

Peergint -

If you really were here to learn, you would have watched and read the videos and link I provided and then commented on them.

Instead, your reaction was that they are anti-christian.

They aren't anti-christian, they are refuting what is written in the Christian bible by showing what G-d tells us in the Hebrew bible.

If you were really here to learn, you would stay on one subject, comment on our standpoint of how the teachings of Christianity are opposed to the Hebrew bible and continue the conversation.

Instead, you just move on bringing up other things without finishing the discussion.

This only leads to going around in circles.

[RabbiO]

After Pesach we can talk about the three times the Talmud mentions what it refers to as the pollution of the serpent which infected Eve and was subsequently passed down to succeeding generations of humanity.

I’m assuming - since the first post generated no response - that there is no interest.

[searchinmyroots]

After Pesach we can talk about the three times the Talmud mentions what it refers to as the pollution of the serpent which infected Eve and was subsequently passed down to succeeding generations of humanity.

I’m assuming - since the first post generated no response - that there is no interest.

I'm interested!!