General Discussion The Messiah and Isaiah 53

[searchinmyroots]

May I please correct you. Christians believe that Jesus, being fully God and fully Man, died FOR OUR sins, that is the sins of the world in totality. 
According to this website which shows the Hebrew translation (https://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInte.../isa53.pdf) it says: "and he being wounded from transgression of us, being crushed from depravities of us. Doesn't this actually mean: "But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities"?
Again, I am only reading and learning.
Once I've looked a bit further into the rest of your post, which I find interesting, I will reply further.
Thank you for being patient with me for my lack of knowledge.
I am finding this most interesting.

Peergint,

No correction necessary as that is exactly what I wrote!

As I mentioned previously, the best way to understand what is written in the Hebrew bible is to understand the Hebrew language it is written in.

In this verse, the Hebrew indicates the servant was wounded from the sins of others. Christianity teaches and as you have acknowledged, Jesus died for the sins of the world.

So what I am trying to show you is the verse in Isaiah 53 is not in agreement with what Christianity teaches.

Since you find this interesting, if you want a clearer explanation of the Hebrew words for Isaiah 53, line by line, you can find it here -

http://thejewishhome.org/counter/Isa53JP.pdf

Thank you. I am taking my time looking at these documents and will certainly come back to you ASAP with more questions... probably! 

Great, glad to hear!

You will see the answers to many of your questions including the use of the Hebrew word "lamo" which means "them".

Also, please refrain from writing things such as "As a Christian, I believe that Jesus came to serve in His first coming. It's when He comes a second time that He will reign."

We know what Christians believe as we interact with many and even have a few former Christians on this forum. No need to tell us about Jesus.

You also asked - "Can I ask about Daniel 9. Is it true that this is not read because a Rabbi said there was a curse on all who read it?"

I don't know where you are getting your information from, but it is clearly wrong. Just so you understand, we read the ENTIRE Hebrew bible, nothing is "left out" or taught not to read. If you understood Judaism, you would know that unlike Christianity, we are encouraged to ask questions and question the meaning of what is written. That is, everything that is written, including Isaiah 53, Daniel 9 and any other chapters or verses others might say are "forbidden".

[Peergint]

May I please correct you. Christians believe that Jesus, being fully God and fully Man, died FOR OUR sins, that is the sins of the world in totality. 
According to this website which shows the Hebrew translation (https://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInte.../isa53.pdf) it says: "and he being wounded from transgression of us, being crushed from depravities of us. Doesn't this actually mean: "But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities"?
Again, I am only reading and learning.
Once I've looked a bit further into the rest of your post, which I find interesting, I will reply further.
Thank you for being patient with me for my lack of knowledge.
I am finding this most interesting.

Peergint,

No correction necessary as that is exactly what I wrote!

As I mentioned previously, the best way to understand what is written in the Hebrew bible is to understand the Hebrew language it is written in.

In this verse, the Hebrew indicates the servant was wounded from the sins of others. Christianity teaches and as you have acknowledged, Jesus died for the sins of the world.

So what I am trying to show you is the verse in Isaiah 53 is not in agreement with what Christianity teaches.

Since you find this interesting, if you want a clearer explanation of the Hebrew words for Isaiah 53, line by line, you can find it here -

http://thejewishhome.org/counter/Isa53JP.pdf

Thank you. I am taking my time looking at these documents and will certainly come back to you ASAP with more questions... probably! 

Great, glad to hear!

You will see the answers to many of your questions including the use of the Hebrew word "lamo" which means "them".

Also, please refrain from writing things such as "As a Christian, I believe that Jesus came to serve in His first coming. It's when He comes a second time that He will reign."

We know what Christians believe as we interact with many and even have a few former Christians on this forum. No need to tell us about Jesus.

You also asked - "Can I ask about Daniel 9. Is it true that this is not read because a Rabbi said there was a curse on all who read it?"

I don't know where you are getting your information from, but it is clearly wrong. Just so you understand, we read the ENTIRE Hebrew bible, nothing is "left out" or taught not to read. If you understood Judaism, you would know that unlike Christianity, we are encouraged to ask questions and question the meaning of what is written. That is, everything that is written, including Isaiah 53, Daniel 9 and any other chapters or verses others might say are "forbidden".

The information I show or discuss is only what I found on the web. I am fully aware that not everything on the web is correct, accurate or true, but until I ask and get your answer I wouldn't I know. You have to test everything right?
About Daniel 9: https://www.hopechannel.com/au/read/the-prophecy-curse
http://thusiasda.com/resources/The%20Jew...0Curse.pdf

[searchinmyroots]

[url=http://thusiasda.com/resources/The%20Jewish%20Tamuldic%20Curse.pdf][/url]
I will just say what others have already said.

If you want to learn about Judaism, then visit Jewish websites.

Seems to be a very antisemitic website, but I'm not surprised.

I can guarantee you won't learn the truth from it.

Please refrain from posting links to Christian and anti-semitic websites, thank you.

Try this -

[searchinmyroots]

And this one -

[Chavak]

Peergint, in one of your links, this statement is made:

"It is also explains why some Jewish Rabbis put this curse on those who read this passage: “May the spirits of those who attempt to calculate the final time [of Maschiach’s coming] expire” (Sanhedrin 97B, quoted in chapter 12 of Hilchos Melachim from the Mishneh Torah of Rambam)". There is no curse put on people who want to read Daniel 9. What is forbidden is trying to determine when moshiach is coming. This is clear from the quote itself.
The only reason I can think of that Christians perpetuate these myths about Jews is that they can't understand why Jews don't accept Jesus as the messiah. Therefore we have blinders (or is it scales?) on our eyes, and our rabbis prevent from reading scriptures that would reveal the truth. This is pure nonsense.

[Chavak]

Try this site for a Jewish translation of the tanach: https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo...-Rashi.htm

Jews for Judaism and Outreach Judaism (anything by Rabbi Singer) are great.

[Peergint]

Peergint, in one of your links, this statement is made:

"It is also explains why some Jewish Rabbis put this curse on those who read this passage: “May the spirits of those who attempt to calculate the final time [of Maschiach’s coming] expire” (Sanhedrin 97B, quoted in chapter 12 of Hilchos Melachim from the Mishneh Torah of Rambam)". There is no curse put on people who want to read Daniel 9. What is forbidden is trying to determine when moshiach is coming. This is clear from the quote itself.
The only reason I can think of that Christians perpetuate these myths about Jews is that they can't understand why Jews don't accept Jesus as the messiah. Therefore we have blinders (or is it scales?) on our eyes, and our rabbis prevent from reading scriptures that would reveal the truth. This is pure nonsense.

Chavak, Daniel 9 discusses the 70 weeks, which I am trying to understand. What I do know is that it was prophesied that the Messiah would die before the second temple would be destroyed. Jesus died 70 years before the temple was destroyed in AD70 by Titus. This prophecy happened. Although in the video I was advised to look at, the Rabbi is currently dismissing what Christian say and proving why he does. 
Regarding "myths" perpetuated by Christians, I know nothing. 
Why would anyone, let alone Jews, be forbidden in trying to determine when the Messiah would come?
It's true, I don't understand why Jews don't accept Jesus as Messiah, which is what I'm trying to understand. I do hope though, that anything I mention is not just dismissed, as I am not dismissing anything you guys tell me, or show me.

[Chavak]

Regarding "myths" perpetuated by Christians, I know nothing. 

Most of us will be gone several days for Pesach and are busy preparing for seders so, I will just address this.

The myths perpetuated by Christians (or more properly missionaries) are the two you are discussing-that Jews are not allowed to Read Isaiah 53 (and that it was removed from the haftorah readings) and the curse on any one who reads Daniel 9. Both are not true.

[Dana]

"and he being wounded from transgression of us, being crushed from depravities of us." 
Doesn't this actually mean: "But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities"?
Again, I am only reading and learning.

To continue...

I have a problem with your statement that the Hebrew Bible calls the "servant" - singular spelling "them". Surely that doesn't make sense?
I looked up Isaiah 53:8 in the complete Jewish Bible and found the following:

After forcible arrest and sentencing,

he was taken away;
and none of his generation protested
his being cut off from the land of the living
for the crimes of my people,
who deserved the punishment themselves.
This Bible also mentions "he", singular. Could you please show me the Hebrew Bible translation as there is no mention of "them" here. Admitted this is not the Hebrew Bible.

This again from the Complete Jewish Bible:
Isaiah 43:10
“You are my witnesses,” says Adonai,

“and my servant whom I have chosen,
so that you can know and trust me
and understand that I am he —
no god was produced before me,
nor will any be after me.

I'm sorry but I cannot see any plurals here.

But it does make sense if you understand the language of Isaiah 52 and 53 is of a poetic structure.

In the Alcalay Hebrew-English Dictionary, page 1,132, the Hebrew word למו lamo, is translated correctly as "them."  Again, poetic language.  Something the prophets often had done was speak of the Jewish nation in the singular.

  Hosea 14: 6-8, the Hebrew language in poetic form speaks of Israel in the masculine singular.  The prophets never speak of an individual in the plural. So, the use of the Hebrew word "them" reveals that the servant of Isaiah 53 is not a single individual.  You've been provided with some excellent links of Rabbi Singer, Outreach Judaism,  answering much of your questions regarding Isaiah 53.   Keep in mind language such as "depravities" is not in the Hebrew verse and it reveals a Calvinistic Christian slant which was extremely hostile to Jews while very defensive of Original sin and the complete and utter depraved state of mankind after the fall. A concept foreign to Judaism.

[Peergint]

"and he being wounded from transgression of us, being crushed from depravities of us." 
Doesn't this actually mean: "But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities"?
Again, I am only reading and learning.

To continue...

I have a problem with your statement that the Hebrew Bible calls the "servant" - singular spelling "them". Surely that doesn't make sense?
I looked up Isaiah 53:8 in the complete Jewish Bible and found the following:

After forcible arrest and sentencing,

he was taken away;
and none of his generation protested
his being cut off from the land of the living
for the crimes of my people,
who deserved the punishment themselves.
This Bible also mentions "he", singular. Could you please show me the Hebrew Bible translation as there is no mention of "them" here. Admitted this is not the Hebrew Bible.

This again from the Complete Jewish Bible:
Isaiah 43:10
“You are my witnesses,” says Adonai,

“and my servant whom I have chosen,
so that you can know and trust me
and understand that I am he —
no god was produced before me,
nor will any be after me.

I'm sorry but I cannot see any plurals here.

But it does make sense if you understand the language of Isaiah 52 and 53 is of a poetic structure.

In the Alcalay Hebrew-English Dictionary, page 1,132, the Hebrew word למו lamo, is translated correctly as "them."  Again, poetic language.  Something the prophets often had done was speak of the Jewish nation in the singular.

  Hosea 14: 6-8, the Hebrew language in poetic form speaks of Israel in the masculine singular.  The prophets never speak of an individual in the plural. So, the use of the Hebrew word "them" reveals that the servant of Isaiah 53 is not a single individual.  You've been provided with some excellent links of Rabbi Singer, Outreach Judaism,  answering much of your questions regarding Isaiah 53.   Keep in mind language such as "depravities" is not in the Hebrew verse and it reveals a Calvinistic Christian slant which was extremely hostile to Jews while very defensive of Original sin and the complete and utter depraved state of mankind after the fall. A concept foreign to Judaism.

I was looking online for the dictionary you quote but alas couldn't find one. 

I did however find the following from this website, https://www.oneforisrael.org/bible-based...ng-israel/:
“Lamo” (לָמוֹ) in Isaiah 53 verse 8

Rabbi Daniel Asur claims that according to verse 8, the character described as plural, not in singular, and therefore cannot be talking about the Messiah. He writes (from Hebrew): “The word ‘Lamo’ means ‘them’, and instead of the prophet writing ‘for the transgression of my people ‘he’ was punished’, he writes ‘Lamo’, meaning the servant is plural… that is why it is not possible for Jesus to be the Messiah.”
However, there are a few other possible aspects that Asur fails to acknowledge:

1. “Lamo” can be either plural or singular, as Isaiah elsewhere uses lamo to mean “to it,” not “to them,” Isaiah 44:15: “he makes an idol and bows down to it”. So, if we take lamo to refer to the servant, it could still mean “for him” as opposed to “for them.”
   
2. Septuagint (LXX): εἰς θάνατον (לַמָּוֶת) – The translators of the Septuagint saw a taf at the end of “lamo,” making it “lamavet” – to death. “He was led to death”.
   
3. NJPSV (New Jewish Publication Society Version) understood “nega‘ lamo” as
   “For the transgression of my people to whom the stroke was due”. The servant receives a stroke for those for whom he is suffering.
   

So then, we can see that the Messiah can fit perfectly with verse 8 in Isaiah chapter 53.

It would appear that Rueben Alcalay is just one of many writers who have differing opinions on this subject. 

It is true that my understanding of Hebrew writing is limited at best.