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Isaiah 53 Verse 10
#21

.docx   Sin.docx (Size: 15.43 KB / Downloads: 3)
(09-02-2020, 11:12 PM)Ismq Wrote: But which another hebrew term can be used besides "asham" to convey the idea of offering for sins?

You see, that's part of why you may not fully understand. There are many different Hebrew words used in the Hebrew bible that refer to sin, each with their own meaning.

Too many for me to list here so I'll attach a document that explains it in more detail. It also gives different references as to where in the Hebrew bible these words are used. So you can get a better idea of what is really being said.

You'll see the English word sin doesn't really explain things in detail as the Hebrew words do.
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#22
(09-02-2020, 11:12 PM)Ismq Wrote: But which another hebrew term can be used besides "asham" to convey the idea of offering for sins?

Instead of אָשָׁם ʾāšām, one could use חַטָּאת ḥaṭṭāʾṯ. In the case of the ʾāšām, the offerer is not aware of his sin and is making the sacrifice to atone for any sin he might have committed. In the case of the ḥaṭṭāʾṯ, the offerer is aware of committing an unintentional sin and is making atonement for it.

If he simply wants to give thanks to God rather than making an atonement for any sin he committed or may have committed, he would make a שְׁלָמִים šəlāmîm offering.

Here is some information on offering types:

Zevach Sh'lamim: Peace Offering

A peace offering is an offering expressing thanks or gratitude to G-d for His bounties and mercies. The Hebrew term for this type of offering is zebach sh'lamim (or sometimes just sh'lamim), which is related to the word shalom, meaning "peace" or "whole." A representative portion of the offering is burnt on the altar, a portion is given to the kohanim, and the rest is eaten by the offerer and his family; thus, everyone gets a part of this offering. This category of offerings includes thanksgiving-offerings (in Hebrew, Todah, which was obligatory for survivors of life-threatening crises), free will-offerings, and offerings made after fulfillment of a vow.

Chatat: Sin Offering

A sin offering is an offering to atone for and purge a sin. It is an expression of sorrow for the error and a desire to be reconciled with G-d. The Hebrew term for this type of offering is chatat, from the word chayt, meaning "missing the mark." A chatat could only be offered for unintentional sins committed through carelessness, not for intentional, malicious sins. The size of the offering varied according to the nature of the sin and the financial means of the sinner. Some chatatot are individual and some are communal. Communal offerings represent the interdependence of the community, and the fact that we are all responsible for each others' sins. A few special chatatot could not be eaten, but for the most part, for the average person's personal sin, the chatat was eaten by the kohanim.

Asham: Guilt Offering

A guilt offering is an offering to atone for sins of stealing things from the altar, for when you are not sure whether you have committed a sin or what sin you have committed, or for breach of trust. The Hebrew word for a guilt offering is asham. When there was doubt as to whether a person committed a sin, the person would make an asham, rather than a chatat, because bringing a chatat would constitute admission of the sin, and the person would have to be punished for it. If a person brought an asham and later discovered that he had in fact committed the sin, he would have to bring a chatat at that time. An asham was eaten by the kohanim.
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#23
My real issue with verse 10 is that Jesus supposedly died at around age 30. This verse says:

אִם־תָּשִׂ֤ים אָשָׁם֙ נַפְשׁ֔וֹ יִרְאֶ֥ה זֶ֖רַע יַֽאֲרִ֣יךְ יָמִ֑ים וְחֵ֥פֶץ יְהוָ֖ה בְּיָד֥וֹ יִצְלָֽח׃
If his soul (he) will make a guilt offering, he will see offspring, he will have a long life, and the will of God will be successful in his hand.

Jesus supposedly died young. He didn't have a long life. He didn't have any offspring. There was no success of anything that he did. The entire passage is full of holes when applied to Jesus and cannot apply to him.
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#24
(09-03-2020, 10:53 AM)Jason Wrote: My real issue with verse 10 is that Jesus supposedly died at around age 30. This verse says:

אִם־תָּשִׂ֤ים אָשָׁם֙ נַפְשׁ֔וֹ יִרְאֶ֥ה זֶ֖רַע יַֽאֲרִ֣יךְ יָמִ֑ים וְחֵ֥פֶץ יְהוָ֖ה בְּיָד֥וֹ יִצְלָֽח׃
If his soul (he) will make a guilt offering, he will see offspring, he will have a long life, and the will of God will be successful in his hand.

Jesus supposedly died young. He didn't have a long life. He didn't have any offspring. There was no success of anything that he did. The entire passage is full of holes when applied to Jesus and cannot apply to him.

But also remain many questions.the jewish explanations trying to fit israel as the suffering servant are simply not accurate.it is a explanation drive by hystory,culture and politics.
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#25
(09-04-2020, 05:08 AM)Ismq Wrote: the jewish explanations trying to fit israel as the suffering servant are simply not accurate.it is a explanation drive by hystory,culture and politics.

And you sir are unable to recognize that you are projecting your ignorance of history with this statement, including your own cultural and political drive. 
Without historical or literary knowledge you do not know that biblical scholars have known for a long time now there are four passages in Isaiah, written in Hebrew, that are clearly speaking about the servant as Israel. The suffering servant is Israel.

Prior to Christianity, Jewish people did not think the passage was about a messiah. The term messiah is not even mentioned. The advent of Christianity brought the notion of a suffering messiah that would die and be raised from the dead.  It is not traditional Judaism.
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#26
(09-04-2020, 05:08 AM)Ismq Wrote: But also remain many questions.the jewish explanations trying to fit israel as the suffering servant are simply not accurate.it is a explanation drive by hystory,culture and politics.

On another thread I mentioned that I thought you were presenting yourself as both ignorant and arrogant. I may have spoken too soon. I need to add to that list.
בקש שלום ורדפהו
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#27
(09-04-2020, 05:08 AM)Ismq Wrote: But also remain many questions.the jewish explanations trying to fit israel as the suffering servant are simply not accurate.it is a explanation drive by hystory,culture and politics.

It's not the Jewish explanations, it's what the text actually says.

I'm not sure you are of authority to tell us it ""trying to fit Israel as the suffering servant are simply not accurate".

How can you prove that?

I think you are reading biased material on the internet. Something that says we always thought Isaiah 53 was about the messiah until Christianity came about and then we changed it to mean Israel. Is that what you think?


Besides, that's not what this thread is about. It is about the Hebrew word asham used in verse 10 that discounts Jesus as being the servant. 

You might want to read this article - https://outreachjudaism.org/gods-sufferi...isaiah-53/


Here is a snippet that addresses your assertion -

"The well-worn claim frequently advanced by Christian apologists who argue that the noted Jewish commentator, Rashi (1040 CE – 1105 CE), was the first to identify the suffering servant of Isaiah 53 with the nation of Israel is inaccurate and misleading. In fact, Origen, a prominent and influential church father, conceded in the year 248 CE – eight centuries before Rashi was born – that the consensus among the Jews in his time was that Isaiah 53 “bore reference to the whole [Jewish] people, regarded as one individual, and as being in a state of dispersion and suffering, in order that many proselytes might be gained, on account of the dispersion of the Jews among numerous heathen nations.”
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#28
lsmq, the problem is that you are ignorant and think you know everything. You don't know the language of our Scriptures. You don't know what they say. Yet, you think you have secret knowledge about what they mean. You don't. You simply believe what your religion has told you. You're wrong, and if you were able to process what's being said to you, you would realize that your interpretation of this chapter is completely off-the-mark. Isaiah 53 absolutely DOES NOT refer to Jesus. It didn't predict him. It contradicts what Christians tell us about his life and death. You've been brainwashed by nonsense.
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#29
I am so sick and tired of ignorant fundamentalist Christians trying to tell Jews how to read their own scriptures written in their own language for their own people. I just cannot be as patient as everyone else here. Sorry, had to let off some steam against these jerks who do not even have a clue as to how uninformed they are. Sorry.
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#30
(09-05-2020, 04:29 AM)robrecht Wrote: I am so sick and tired of ignorant fundamentalist Christians trying to tell Jews how to read their own scriptures written in their own language for their own people. I just cannot be as patient as everyone else here. Sorry, had to let off some steam against these jerks who do not even have a clue as to how uninformed they are. Sorry.

I certainly agree with you. I've been invested in reading the Hebrew Bible in the Hebrew language on a daily basis for over twenty years, and these people don't even know Hebrew, and they want to tell me what it means without even being able to read it! It's insulting and annoying.
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