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Why jesus is not the messiah for the jews?
#11
(11-06-2020, 03:53 PM)searchinmyroots wrote: So if I understand this correctly, the term "living water" is nowhere to be found in the Hebrew bible, correct?

I don't think so, but even if it were, what difference would it make?
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#12
(11-06-2020, 03:53 PM)searchinmyroots wrote: So if I understand this correctly, the term "living water" is nowhere to be found in the Hebrew bible, correct?

‎מַיִם חַיִּים is found in the Song of Songs 4,15 and in Jeremiah 2,13 & 17,13.
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#13
(11-07-2020, 05:33 AM)robrecht wrote:
(11-06-2020, 03:53 PM)searchinmyroots wrote: So if I understand this correctly, the term "living water" is nowhere to be found in the Hebrew bible, correct?

‎מַיִם חַיִּים is found in the Song of Songs 4,15 and in Jeremiah 2,13 & 17,13.

I didn't take the time to look. I don't see what the point of the question is.
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#14
Shabbat Shalom Jason, Searchinmyroots, and Robrecht, thank you for your comments. To me, the question concerning the difference between water and living water is worthy of our consideration. To review, water is a symbol or a metaphor for the Torah, as taught by midrash through Rabbis. Logic tells us that for LIFE, one needs water. One could argue that it is the primary element in our physical world that gives and sustains life, and the argument could also be made that spiritually speaking, the Torah is the primary element from HaShem that grants LIFE, that is by obedience to it (you have to DRINK it in, and DO IT). The problem is that physical man is very poor at keeping what the Torah requires for one to have LIFE, so instead of receiving the blessing of LIFE, curses and death have prevailed because of sin and disobedience.

As Robrecht pointed out, Jeremiah 2:13 and 17:13 speaks of "living water." Also Jason pointed out, "living water" normally means "water that is flowing, moving, not sitting still." So it appears by the normal meaning of "living water," that if you apply that to how "water" is a symbol of LIFE, then one could argue that LIVING WATER is LIFE that continues to FLOW...it doesn't stop (Eternal Life). Now, just as Jeremiah 2:13 states that HaShem's people have FORSAKEN Him (The source or fountain of LIVING WATERS), and have tried to dig their OWN wells/cisterns that hold NO water, Jeremiah 17:13 reveals they will be "written in the earth." Jarchi and Kimchi interpret "written in the earth" to mean those who forsake the source or fountain of LIVING WATERS, that they will die. That interpretation forces us to recognize that the fountain of "living waters" produces continued LIFE, LIFE that FLOWS and doesn't end. Notice how HaShem points out about those who try to dig their OWN well or cistern. Man has been doing this as they try to lay claim of eternal life in their beliefs. The suicide bomber thinks they go to paradise to be received by 70 virgins. Traditional christianity thinks they die and go to eternal bliss in heaven. Many religions believe in a "rebirth" and "reincarnation," and ALL of these "wells or cisterns" that they have DUG themselves about having LIFE, contain no LIFE or WATER, but only death.

So my point is that LIVING WATER is a symbol for sustained or continued LIFE...LIFE that FLOWS Eternally (Eternal Life), and ONLY those who do not forsake HaShem can be partakers of this LIVING WATER of Eternal Life. Is this something that could be correct? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.
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#15
Water is Torah and Torah is life, which means in my opinion it is how to live your life and get the most out of it as G-d wants us to.

So living water can mean Torah is alive, it is life how to be liven. 

Those verses in Jeremiah seem to say that G-d is the source of Torah that lives and keeps us, how to live your life.

I don't see any correlation to eternal life.
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#16
(11-07-2020, 11:33 PM)searchinmyroots wrote: Water is Torah and Torah is life, which means in my opinion it is how to live your life and get the most out of it as G-d wants us to.

So living water can mean Torah is alive, it is life how to be liven. 

Those verses in Jeremiah seem to say that G-d is the source of Torah that lives and keeps us, how to live your life.

I don't see any correlation to eternal life.
Shalom Searchinmyroots, thank you very much for your answer. So water is a symbol of Torah, and Torah is life, and your opinion is that living water is a symbol of "Torah is alive?" Ok, do you have a symbol that can be used for Eternal Life? Or is Eternal Life something that you would say is not real? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.
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#17
(11-08-2020, 03:13 AM)ImAHebrew wrote:
(11-07-2020, 11:33 PM)searchinmyroots wrote: Water is Torah and Torah is life, which means in my opinion it is how to live your life and get the most out of it as G-d wants us to.

So living water can mean Torah is alive, it is life how to be liven. 

Those verses in Jeremiah seem to say that G-d is the source of Torah that lives and keeps us, how to live your life.

I don't see any correlation to eternal life.
Shalom Searchinmyroots, thank you very much for your answer.  So water is a symbol of Torah, and Torah is life, and your opinion is that living water is a symbol of "Torah is alive?"  Ok, do you have a symbol that can be used for Eternal Life?  Or is Eternal Life something that you would say is not real?  Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

Eternal life sounds like Christian theology to me.
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#18
(11-08-2020, 03:48 AM)searchinmyroots wrote: Eternal life sounds like Christian theology to me.

Indeed, but we do have the expression חַיֵּי הָֽעוֹלָם הַבָּא ḥayê hāʿôlām habbāʾ "the life of the World to Come" in Jewish sources, and sources would seem to indicate that it is eternal. We have to be careful about letting Christians usurp Jewish concepts and take ownership of them.

What "eternal life" does do, however, is show us that the person was probably reading Christian sources and trying to work from there.
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#19
Shalom Searchinmyroots and Jason, thank you both for your comments.  You are probably right that most would think the words "eternal life" sounds like traditional christian theology.  Still, the whole point of Ismq's thread is to show WHY "Jesus" is NOT the Messiah for the Jews.  In proving this, it is very important to show there is a difference between what water symbolizes, and what living water symbolizes in explaining WHY traditional christianity's "Jesus" is not the Messiah for the Jews.  If water can symbolize the Torah (as midrash and Rabbi's indicate), and the Torah IS life (as HaShem indicates), then does not abundant, flowing, fresh "living water" symbolize everlasting life?

Consider Daniel 12:1-2  

  (1) And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince who standeth for the children of thy people; and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time; and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
  (2) And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to reproaches and everlasting abhorrence.

I would hope you find it very interesting that those who are found WRITTEN in the book will be delivered, and many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth, shall AWAKE...some to EVERLASTING LIFE.  When you compare that to what Rashi had to say about Jeremiah 17:13 of those who FORSAKE the SOURCE of LIVING WATER, in that they would be WRITTEN (marked out) in/on the nether graves of the earth (that they die).  Would not this be a clear indication that the LIVING WATER is a symbol for "everlasting life," and those who do not forsake the SOURCE of this everlasting life will continue living, and not die (they will be WRITTEN in the BOOK of the LIVING-Psa 69:28, instead of the earth)?  Just some things to think about.  Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.
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#20
(11-08-2020, 07:42 AM)Jason wrote:
(11-08-2020, 03:48 AM)searchinmyroots wrote: Eternal life sounds like Christian theology to me.

Indeed, but we do have the expression חַיֵּי הָֽעוֹלָם הַבָּא ḥayê hāʿôlām habbāʾ "the life of the World to Come" in Jewish sources, and sources would seem to indicate that it is eternal. We have to be careful about letting Christians usurp Jewish concepts and take ownership of them.

What "eternal life" does do, however, is show us that the person was probably reading Christian sources and trying to work from there.

Yes, what Judaism believes is the "world to come" is much different than what Christians believe is "eternal life" with all of their gold streets and feasts.
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