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+--- Thread: The original sin (/showthread.php?tid=412)
RE: The original sin - Jason - 04-13-2020
(04-13-2020, 08:56 PM)RabbiO Wrote:(04-08-2020, 03:26 PM)RabbiO Wrote: After Pesach we can talk about the three times the Talmud mentions what it refers to as the pollution of the serpent which infected Eve and was subsequently passed down to succeeding generations of humanity.
I’m assuming - since the first post generated no response - that there is no interest.
Throw them out there! I'm sure we've all just been too busy with Pesach.
RE: The original sin - Chavak - 04-14-2020
(04-13-2020, 09:58 PM)searchinmyroots Wrote:Me too!(04-13-2020, 08:56 PM)RabbiO Wrote:(04-08-2020, 03:26 PM)RabbiO Wrote: After Pesach we can talk about the three times the Talmud mentions what it refers to as the pollution of the serpent which infected Eve and was subsequently passed down to succeeding generations of humanity.
I’m assuming - since the first post generated no response - that there is no interest.
I'm interested!!
RE: The original sin - a_Sarah - 04-16-2020
(04-13-2020, 08:56 PM)RabbiO Wrote:(04-08-2020, 03:26 PM)RabbiO Wrote: After Pesach we can talk about the three times the Talmud mentions what it refers to as the pollution of the serpent which infected Eve and was subsequently passed down to succeeding generations of humanity.
I’m assuming - since the first post generated no response - that there is no interest.
I am also interested! I took a break from my PC for the last few days and am now back and eager to learn more.
I would also suggest that maybe we could keep this thread open for discussing the matter from a Jewish point of view. I forgot that we too have a separate board labeled "World Religion", so maybe we can shift any further discussion about Christian or other view points there. Not wanting to exclude and I appreciate the discussion, but I have to admit that this thread became a bit confusing for me to follow, especially since my original concern (that I myself derailed) was about the stance Judaism takes in that matter.
RE: The original sin - George - 04-19-2020
(04-05-2020, 02:38 PM)searchinmyroots Wrote: Hello Sarah, hope you are doing well.
Quite coincidentally, I received this Youtube video from Jews for Judaism this morning!!
Not sure if it answers your question directly, but I thought you might find it interesting.
Your understanding of the Judaism's viewpoint as far as I can see is correct!
There is a verse in Genesis that says "our inclination is evil from our youth", not from birth.
8:21 - And the Lord smelled the pleasant aroma, and the Lord said to Himself, "I will no longer curse the earth because of man, for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth, and I will no longer smite all living things as I have done.
There are many, many more things I could reference if you would like, just let me know!
I would ask her if she knows the Hebrew bible says we can rule over sin.
And ask her why G-d and the prophets told us many times in many places of ways to be forgiven, without any sacrifices.
A perfect example is II Chronicles 7:14 where King Solomon is dedicating the temple and tells us how to be forgiven -
7:14 - And My people, upon whom My name is called, humble themselves and pray and seek My presence and repent of their evil ways, I shall hear from heaven and forgive their sin and heal their land.
That kind of eliminates any need for Jesus in my opinion!
Here is a quick article that may help as well -
https://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/articles/sin-atonement-and-salvation
According to Judaism where was the Garden of Eden?
RE: The original sin - Jason - 04-19-2020
(04-19-2020, 02:51 PM)George Wrote: According to Judaism where was the Garden of Eden?
Genesis 2:8–15 (New International Version)
8 Now the Lord God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed. 9 The Lord God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground—trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
10 A river watering the garden flowed from Eden; from there it was separated into four headwaters. 11 The name of the first is the Pishon; it winds through the entire land of Havilah, where there is gold. 12 (The gold of that land is good; aromatic resin and onyx are also there.) 13 The name of the second river is the Gihon; it winds through the entire land of Cush. 14 The name of the third river is the Tigris; it runs along the east side of Ashur. And the fourth river is the Euphrates.
15 The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it.
RE: The original sin - George - 04-20-2020
(04-19-2020, 10:28 PM)Jason Wrote:(04-19-2020, 02:51 PM)George Wrote: According to Judaism where was the Garden of Eden?
Genesis 2:8–15 (New International Version)
8 Now the Lord God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed. 9 The Lord God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground—trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
10 A river watering the garden flowed from Eden; from there it was separated into four headwaters. 11 The name of the first is the Pishon; it winds through the entire land of Havilah, where there is gold. 12 (The gold of that land is good; aromatic resin and onyx are also there.) 13 The name of the second river is the Gihon; it winds through the entire land of Cush. 14 The name of the third river is the Tigris; it runs along the east side of Ashur. And the fourth river is the Euphrates.
15 The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it.
So, the garden is on earth.
RE: The original sin - Jason - 04-22-2020
(04-20-2020, 11:21 AM)George Wrote: So, the garden is on earth.
According to the Bible, it was planted on earth.
Do you know where Atlantis is?
The story of the Garden of Eden is a myth, though. Like Atlantis. You shouldn't waste your life searching for it. You're not going to find it.
RE: The original sin - George - 04-24-2020
(04-22-2020, 12:38 PM)Jason Wrote:(04-20-2020, 11:21 AM)George Wrote: So, the garden is on earth.
According to the Bible, it was planted on earth.
Do you know where Atlantis is?
The story of the Garden of Eden is a myth, though. Like Atlantis. You shouldn't waste your life searching for it. You're not going to find it.
Is it true that the name "Adam" is actually the common word for "man" in the original Hebrew language?
RE: The original sin - Stevemuss - 04-30-2020
(04-05-2020, 02:13 PM)a_Sarah Wrote: During all this lockdown I have started a conversation (via voice messages) with an openly Christian neighbor of mine about our beliefs. I asked her "why Jesus" because this is one huge part I could never understand about Christianity.
Her answers are very centered on sin and mankind needing rescue (by accepting Jesus), leading back to the concept of original sin. She said that Judaism and Christianity have this in common, but so far my understanding was that in Judaism the consequences of that incident are not that any person being born "inherits" that sin, but that people start out innocent and without sin, but can, due to their own free will, commit sins in their lifetime. Are there any other interpretations in Judaism? Or is there any passage that suggests people need to be redeemed from that original sin?
Thank you!
There are a few passages which hint at original sin. “Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me” psalm 51:5. and Genesis 8:21
Psalm 58:3
The wicked are estranged from the womb;
These who speak lies go astray from birth
The Lord smelled the soothing aroma; and the Lord said to Himself, “I will never again curse the ground on account of man, for the intent of man’s heart is evil from his youth; and I will never again destroy every living thing, as I have done.
Jeremiah 17:9
he wicked are estranged from the womb;
These who speak lies go astray from birth
Not sure if this helps
RE: The original sin - Jason - 05-06-2020
Sometimes a text doesn't mean what a simple reading would think it means. Such is the case here. It is hyperbole to speak of things in this way.
Let's take an extreme example. We know that Hitler was probably the worst human being who existed. If you had a time machine, would you go back and kill baby Hitler? Do you think that he was evil when he was a baby? Had he done anything at 1 year old that would merit him being killed?
I don't think he had done anything at that age. I don't think there was any sin for him to give account of. However, we know what he would become – and killing the baby would have saved so many lives! It's as if he was guilty from the womb, though that is not technically the case. He was simply on a path from a young age that would lead to very bad consequences.
The same with a rapist, who becomes twisted when he is young. One does not wake up at 30 and decide that he wants to rape (in most cases). It is something that developed over time through negative encounters over a person's lifetime, and it's imperceptible to those who are not privy to that person's thoughts. We might say that he is wicked from his youth, but that doesn't mean that he was born with it in him (in most cases). It means that he went down a path that led him to do things that the rest of us would esteem unthinkable.
It is certainly hyperbole for the text to say that "the intent of man’s heart is evil from his youth," since there are many good people in the world. It's just commenting on the fact that young people tend to learn how to be cruel and violent early on (and we see that in our own world). It doesn't mean that we should feel hopeless or that everyone is like that.
Not everyone is like that. Some people are good. Some people are righteous. Some people are psychologically healthy. The doctrine of "original sin" (as disgusting as it is) would have us believe that mankind is born with evil in him, not because of something he did or will do, but by virtue of his being a human being. It leads to the doctrine of "total depravity," which is a tenet of Reformed Theology (from Calvin). It's simply wrong and unworthy thinking.