The original sin

[searchinmyroots]

Sarah,

Great questions!

"Christianity claims that Jesus died for our sins and you need to accept Jesus in order to be redeemed from that original sin that we apparently all inherited. Is that correct, regarding the Christian interpretation?"

Although I'm not a Christian, I would have to believe the answer to this is yes, probably in almost all denominations.



"@searchinmyroots, What is the context for that verse? It sounds like a shift in view, so there was cursing and smiting going on before that - due to which reason? 

I know (not in detail) about the stories of Sodom & Gomorrha and the flood, but I understood it as consequences to very tangible and manifest sins, with lots of opportunity to save yourself and/or better the (very real) behavior (that you yourself decided to cause).  This is a theme that I find  throughout what I have learned about Judaism so far - basically g-d reminding you that you have the tools to be decent, so please do so (or occasionally suffer the consequences). Are there any passages where g-d punishes for anything other than actual wrongdoings?"

If I'm not mistaken, it is referring to what is written in Genesis Chapter 6 -

11- Now the earth was corrupt before God, and the earth became full of robbery.

12- And God saw the earth, and behold it had become corrupted, for all flesh had corrupted its way on the earth.:

13 - And God said to Noah, "The end of all flesh has come before Me, for the earth has become full of robbery because of them, and behold I am destroying them from the earth.


I 'm not sure of any passages where G-d punishes for anything other than actual wrongdoings.


"She cited multiple verses of how in Judaism sacrifices are still a thing. The passage you linked to suggests it is a misconception. It seems that there is that distinction between sacrifices for your current wrongdoings and for some general assumed apparently inherent evilness, which I now understand does not exist in Judaism."


Sacrifices can only take place when there is a Temple standing (although I think there is one case where an exception was made). So sacrifices aren't "still a thing". Ask her how the Jewish people were forgiven for their sins during the time between the 1st and 2nd Temples. There were many prophets of the bile who lived and wrote during that time. Daniel prayed 3 times a day. Why if he couldn't be forgiven without a sacrifice? There are many, many places in the Hebrew bible where it says you can be forgiven with prayer, repentance and charity. Plus, the sin sacrifice was only for unintentional sins as written in Leviticus.

Yes, sinning is a choice but we all do it. G-d in His infinite wisdom knew this, that is why He gave us ways to be forgiven. What sense does it make to give us ways to be forgiven if there is no way except through Jesus and if we are all born sinners? Why punish us for something that is out of our control if that's what they believe?

So yes, Judaism is so much more life affirming, affirming that people are humans and can fail, but always can better themselves, and  that it just depends on their efforts, which are seen by g-d. And the reason is, that is what G-d intended as it is written in the Hebrew bible!

The end of Ecclesiastes I think sums it up quite well -

12:13 - The end of the matter, everything having been heard, fear God and keep His commandments, for this is the entire man.

14 - For every deed God will bring to judgment-for every hidden thing, whether good or bad.

What is it saying?

In my opinion -

The end of the matter - This is all that counts.

Everything having been heard - No matter what anyone else says, this is what G-d says.

Fear G-d and keep His commandments - Be in awe of G-d and respect His power. Keep (not that you must obey everything perfectly, you must hold onto them) His commandments.

For this is the entire man - Nothing else is required!

Verse 14 is pretty self explanatory!


What do you think?

[Peergint]

Thank you for all your input! Great coincidence with that video, searchinmyroots, thanks for linking to it! 

From my side, it's ok to have your opinion here, too, Peergint (since you made clear that you're not going to try to proselytize)! But I'd mainly like to find out if there is anything else in the Hebrew Bible that refers to that original sin situation. If we compare it to the view in Christianity, let's just point out that it's the Christian view. 


I am really coming from the opposite direction than you, though: I cannot understand how Christians jump to the conclusion that Jesus is not "just" a great guy who had a historical impact, but in fact g-ds son, on one level with g-d. 

To clarify where I'm coming from - I had a culturally Christian upbringing, with compulsory religion as a subject at school, church groups, spent a few years at a Christian school, and studied the historical Jesus for one subject of my finals back then. I am not Christian, however, but would like to convert to Judaism. So this is where I am coming from. Having Jesus in the equation was normal for me because that was the narrative I grew up with, even though no one in my family was religious. It is just SO normal to celebrate Christmas and Easter, our society builds around it. But I never realized the apparently HUGE role the original sin plays in Christianity until my neighbor pointed it out. My point of view is that a lot of people who are "habitual" Christians do not know this. In fact, I just had a call with my mother who didn't know that and was similarly shocked. But it makes sense for the answer to "why one needs to accept Jesus" - Christianity claims that Jesus died for our sins and you need to accept Jesus in order to be redeemed from that original sin that we apparently all inherited. Is that correct, regarding the Christian interpretation? 

8:21 - And the Lord smelled the pleasant aroma, and the Lord said to Himself, "I will no longer curse the earth because of man, for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth, and I will no longer smite all living things as I have done.

@searchinmyroots, What is the context for that verse? It sounds like a shift in view, so there was cursing and smiting going on before that - due to which reason? 

I know (not in detail) about the stories of Sodom & Gomorrha and the flood, but I understood it as consequences to very tangible and manifest sins, with lots of opportunity to save yourself and/or better the (very real) behavior (that you yourself decided to cause).  This is a theme that I find  throughout what I have learned about Judaism so far - basically g-d reminding you that you have the tools to be decent, so please do so (or occasionally suffer the consequences). Are there any passages where g-d punishes for anything other than actual wrongdoings? 

I would ask her if she knows the Hebrew bible says we can rule over sin.

And ask her why G-d and the prophets told us many times in many places of ways to be forgiven, without any sacrifices.

She cited multiple verses of how in Judaism sacrifices are still a thing. The passage you linked to suggests it is a misconception. It seems that there is that distinction between sacrifices for your current wrongdoings and for some general assumed apparently inherent evilness, which I now understand does not exist in Judaism. 

That's not it at all. What it means is that because of Adam and Eve's sin, death entered the world. Before then they had eternal life. Because of the original sin, and we are all descendants from Adam, his sin affects us all. Children don't sin, but because they're human like we are, they will sin at some point because none of us are perfect.

Peergint, Ok, I am with you so far. But if that's the interpretation, why do we still need Jesus as redeemer of said sin? Why not cut out the middle man and make it just about g-d and the person? And if Adam's sin means we are all going to die (but weren't before), how do we connect that to sinning in general? What is that redemption that only Jesus can achieve? And why can people not do that themselves? 


I agree that the idea of being born a "sinner" is off-putting. I am not sure if it doesn't mean the same thing, though (the inclination of sinning, which indeed seems to be a human trait, just like children need to be taught ethics and responsible behavior or might end up hurting others if let run wild, versus some inherited guilt). It seems so destructive and seems to have led to progressively more authoritarian theological beliefs with each new "iteration".

On a personal level, Judaism seems so much more life affirming, affirming that people are humans and can fail, but always can better themselves, and  that it just depends on their efforts, which are seen by g-d.

Hi a_Sarah, 
You said, "But it makes sense for the answer to "why one needs to accept Jesus" - Christianity claims that Jesus died for our sins and you only need to accept Jesus in order to be redeemed from original sin that we apparently all inherited. Is that correct, regarding the Christian interpretation?"
Not quite. We, Christians, believe that Jesus died to redeem us from all sin, past, present and future. You don't have to "do" anything to receive salvation. You only need to believe.

You quote Genesis 8:21. God said He will not smite the earth with flooding again. He had punished man for his sin by the flood where only Noah and his family were saved by building an ark as God had directed him. This has to do with sin, not the original sin. Man had become very sinful, rather as we have become today.

Your next statement says: I know (not in detail) about the stories of Sodom & Gomorrha and the flood, but I understood it as consequences to very tangible and manifest sins, with lots of opportunity to save yourself and/or better the (very real) behavior (that you yourself decided to cause).  This is a theme that I find  throughout what I have learned about Judaism so far - basically g-d reminding you that you have the tools to be decent, so please do so (or occasionally suffer the consequences). Are there any passages where g-d punishes for anything other than actual wrongdoings? 

This suggests that we can save ourselves, (Moderators Add - According to Christianity) which we cannot and that we have to do something, as in works not faith. God always chastised the Israelites. They had been rescued from the Egyptians and were promised a land of milk and honey, but on the way there they sinned. When Moses went up the mountain to get the 10 commandments from God, Aaron made a golden calf for them to worship, instead of the one true God. After they sent 10 scouts into Canaan, 8 came back and said that they could not enter because the people there were giants. So they didn't go and God made them travel in the wilderness for 40 years as punishment for their unbelief. God doesn't punish for doing nothing wrong.

Regarding your comments about a redeemer. We believe that God sent His one and only begotten Son that whoever would believe in Him would have eternal life. The parable about the vineyard owner in the New Testament helps explain a little more. Luke 20:9-15. When the Israelites were in bondage in Egypt, they were told by Moses that God was going to free them and that they must observe the passover when the Lord visited all the firstborn of the land in the tenth plague and everyone had to sprinkle the blood of the lambs on the doorposts. This meant that God would not touch the firstborn in those homes. We believe Jesus is the passover Lamb for all people. In other words no other sacrifice is necessary because He took the punishment for our sins upon Himself. (Moderator Note - What does the Passover Lamb have to do with sin?)

Regarding the original sin and subsequent sin. God knew that man could not keep His commandments. So He made a covenant with I believe Jacob, whereby an animal was cut in two but before Jacob could walk through the two halves to initiate the covenant God caused him to fall into a sleep. Then God Himself walked through the two halves. This meant that God made the covenant, but Jacob didn't. (Moderator Note - Can you please show us a reference to this in the Hebrew bible?)Therefore to free us from sin, God kept His covenant with us by sending His Son to be our sacrifice, knowing if He hadn't not one person would be saved as we have all sinned. God, being just and the only one who can just because He alone is perfect, He requires a sacrifice. (Moderator Note - This is based on Christian theology and is not consistent with what G-d teaches in the Hebrew bible)

The law convicts us all, but because of Jesus and the grace of God, we are not under the law but under grace. (Moderator Note - Again, this is Christian theology and has no basis in the Hebrew bible)

I have explained from what Christians believe in answer to your questions and I am more than happy to answer as best I can any other questions, but I am conscious that this is a Jewish website promoting Judaism and not Christianity.

[searchinmyroots]

Peergint and Sarah,

I realize Sarah asked a question about Christianity, but I don't think this is the forum to discuss this.

Sorry to delete Peergint's response, but I felt it was the proper thing to do.

[RabbiO]

After Pesach we can talk about the three times the Talmud mentions what it refers to as the pollution of the serpent which infected Eve and was subsequently passed down to succeeding generations of humanity.

[Peergint]

Thank you for all your input! Great coincidence with that video, searchinmyroots, thanks for linking to it! 

From my side, it's ok to have your opinion here, too, Peergint (since you made clear that you're not going to try to proselytize)! But I'd mainly like to find out if there is anything else in the Hebrew Bible that refers to that original sin situation. If we compare it to the view in Christianity, let's just point out that it's the Christian view. 


I am really coming from the opposite direction than you, though: I cannot understand how Christians jump to the conclusion that Jesus is not "just" a great guy who had a historical impact, but in fact g-ds son, on one level with g-d. 

To clarify where I'm coming from - I had a culturally Christian upbringing, with compulsory religion as a subject at school, church groups, spent a few years at a Christian school, and studied the historical Jesus for one subject of my finals back then. I am not Christian, however, but would like to convert to Judaism. So this is where I am coming from. Having Jesus in the equation was normal for me because that was the narrative I grew up with, even though no one in my family was religious. It is just SO normal to celebrate Christmas and Easter, our society builds around it. But I never realized the apparently HUGE role the original sin plays in Christianity until my neighbor pointed it out. My point of view is that a lot of people who are "habitual" Christians do not know this. In fact, I just had a call with my mother who didn't know that and was similarly shocked. But it makes sense for the answer to "why one needs to accept Jesus" - Christianity claims that Jesus died for our sins and you need to accept Jesus in order to be redeemed from that original sin that we apparently all inherited. Is that correct, regarding the Christian interpretation? 

8:21 - And the Lord smelled the pleasant aroma, and the Lord said to Himself, "I will no longer curse the earth because of man, for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth, and I will no longer smite all living things as I have done.

@searchinmyroots, What is the context for that verse? It sounds like a shift in view, so there was cursing and smiting going on before that - due to which reason? 

I know (not in detail) about the stories of Sodom & Gomorrha and the flood, but I understood it as consequences to very tangible and manifest sins, with lots of opportunity to save yourself and/or better the (very real) behavior (that you yourself decided to cause).  This is a theme that I find  throughout what I have learned about Judaism so far - basically g-d reminding you that you have the tools to be decent, so please do so (or occasionally suffer the consequences). Are there any passages where g-d punishes for anything other than actual wrongdoings? 

I would ask her if she knows the Hebrew bible says we can rule over sin.

And ask her why G-d and the prophets told us many times in many places of ways to be forgiven, without any sacrifices.

She cited multiple verses of how in Judaism sacrifices are still a thing. The passage you linked to suggests it is a misconception. It seems that there is that distinction between sacrifices for your current wrongdoings and for some general assumed apparently inherent evilness, which I now understand does not exist in Judaism. 

That's not it at all. What it means is that because of Adam and Eve's sin, death entered the world. Before then they had eternal life. Because of the original sin, and we are all descendants from Adam, his sin affects us all. Children don't sin, but because they're human like we are, they will sin at some point because none of us are perfect.

Peergint, Ok, I am with you so far. But if that's the interpretation, why do we still need Jesus as redeemer of said sin? Why not cut out the middle man and make it just about g-d and the person? And if Adam's sin means we are all going to die (but weren't before), how do we connect that to sinning in general? What is that redemption that only Jesus can achieve? And why can people not do that themselves? 


I agree that the idea of being born a "sinner" is off-putting. I am not sure if it doesn't mean the same thing, though (the inclination of sinning, which indeed seems to be a human trait, just like children need to be taught ethics and responsible behavior or might end up hurting others if let run wild, versus some inherited guilt). It seems so destructive and seems to have led to progressively more authoritarian theological beliefs with each new "iteration".

On a personal level, Judaism seems so much more life affirming, affirming that people are humans and can fail, but always can better themselves, and  that it just depends on their efforts, which are seen by g-d.

Hi a_Sarah, 
You said, "But it makes sense for the answer to "why one needs to accept Jesus" - Christianity claims that Jesus died for our sins and you only need to accept Jesus in order to be redeemed from original sin that we apparently all inherited. Is that correct, regarding the Christian interpretation?"
Not quite. We, Christians, believe that Jesus died to redeem us from all sin, past, present and future. You don't have to "do" anything to receive salvation. You only need to believe.

You quote Genesis 8:21. God said He will not smite the earth with flooding again. He had punished man for his sin by the flood where only Noah and his family were saved by building an ark as God had directed him. This has to do with sin, not the original sin. Man had become very sinful, rather as we have become today.

Your next statement says: I know (not in detail) about the stories of Sodom & Gomorrha and the flood, but I understood it as consequences to very tangible and manifest sins, with lots of opportunity to save yourself and/or better the (very real) behavior (that you yourself decided to cause).  This is a theme that I find  throughout what I have learned about Judaism so far - basically g-d reminding you that you have the tools to be decent, so please do so (or occasionally suffer the consequences). Are there any passages where g-d punishes for anything other than actual wrongdoings? 

This suggests that we can save ourselves, (Moderators Add - According to Christianity) which we cannot and that we have to do something, as in works not faith. God always chastised the Israelites. They had been rescued from the Egyptians and were promised a land of milk and honey, but on the way there they sinned. When Moses went up the mountain to get the 10 commandments from God, Aaron made a golden calf for them to worship, instead of the one true God. After they sent 10 scouts into Canaan, 8 came back and said that they could not enter because the people there were giants. So they didn't go and God made them travel in the wilderness for 40 years as punishment for their unbelief. God doesn't punish for doing nothing wrong.

Regarding your comments about a redeemer. We believe that God sent His one and only begotten Son that whoever would believe in Him would have eternal life. The parable about the vineyard owner in the New Testament helps explain a little more. Luke 20:9-15. When the Israelites were in bondage in Egypt, they were told by Moses that God was going to free them and that they must observe the passover when the Lord visited all the firstborn of the land in the tenth plague and everyone had to sprinkle the blood of the lambs on the doorposts. This meant that God would not touch the firstborn in those homes. We believe Jesus is the passover Lamb for all people. In other words no other sacrifice is necessary because He took the punishment for our sins upon Himself. (Moderator Note - What does the Passover Lamb have to do with sin?)

Regarding the original sin and subsequent sin. God knew that man could not keep His commandments. So He made a covenant with I believe Jacob, whereby an animal was cut in two but before Jacob could walk through the two halves to initiate the covenant God caused him to fall into a sleep. Then God Himself walked through the two halves. This meant that God made the covenant, but Jacob didn't. (Moderator Note - Can you please show us a reference to this in the Hebrew bible?)Therefore to free us from sin, God kept His covenant with us by sending His Son to be our sacrifice, knowing if He hadn't not one person would be saved as we have all sinned. God, being just and the only one who can just because He alone is perfect, He requires a sacrifice. (Moderator Note - This is based on Christian theology and is not consistent with what G-d teaches in the Hebrew bible)

The law convicts us all, but because of Jesus and the grace of God, we are not under the law but under grace. (Moderator Note - Again, this is Christian theology and has no basis in the Hebrew bible)

I have explained from what Christians believe in answer to your questions and I am more than happy to answer as best I can any other questions, but I am conscious that this is a Jewish website promoting Judaism and not Christianity.

a_Sarah,
As my posts are edited or deleted I am obviously breaking the very stringent of rules of this forum.
It's up to the moderator/s but it simply closes down discussion.
I would be happy to discuss anything elsewhere if you wish. If not that's fine too.

[Peergint]

Thank you for all your input! Great coincidence with that video, searchinmyroots, thanks for linking to it! 

From my side, it's ok to have your opinion here, too, Peergint (since you made clear that you're not going to try to proselytize)! But I'd mainly like to find out if there is anything else in the Hebrew Bible that refers to that original sin situation. If we compare it to the view in Christianity, let's just point out that it's the Christian view. 


I am really coming from the opposite direction than you, though: I cannot understand how Christians jump to the conclusion that Jesus is not "just" a great guy who had a historical impact, but in fact g-ds son, on one level with g-d. 

To clarify where I'm coming from - I had a culturally Christian upbringing, with compulsory religion as a subject at school, church groups, spent a few years at a Christian school, and studied the historical Jesus for one subject of my finals back then. I am not Christian, however, but would like to convert to Judaism. So this is where I am coming from. Having Jesus in the equation was normal for me because that was the narrative I grew up with, even though no one in my family was religious. It is just SO normal to celebrate Christmas and Easter, our society builds around it. But I never realized the apparently HUGE role the original sin plays in Christianity until my neighbor pointed it out. My point of view is that a lot of people who are "habitual" Christians do not know this. In fact, I just had a call with my mother who didn't know that and was similarly shocked. But it makes sense for the answer to "why one needs to accept Jesus" - Christianity claims that Jesus died for our sins and you need to accept Jesus in order to be redeemed from that original sin that we apparently all inherited. Is that correct, regarding the Christian interpretation? 

8:21 - And the Lord smelled the pleasant aroma, and the Lord said to Himself, "I will no longer curse the earth because of man, for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth, and I will no longer smite all living things as I have done.

@searchinmyroots, What is the context for that verse? It sounds like a shift in view, so there was cursing and smiting going on before that - due to which reason? 

I know (not in detail) about the stories of Sodom & Gomorrha and the flood, but I understood it as consequences to very tangible and manifest sins, with lots of opportunity to save yourself and/or better the (very real) behavior (that you yourself decided to cause).  This is a theme that I find  throughout what I have learned about Judaism so far - basically g-d reminding you that you have the tools to be decent, so please do so (or occasionally suffer the consequences). Are there any passages where g-d punishes for anything other than actual wrongdoings? 

I would ask her if she knows the Hebrew bible says we can rule over sin.

And ask her why G-d and the prophets told us many times in many places of ways to be forgiven, without any sacrifices.

She cited multiple verses of how in Judaism sacrifices are still a thing. The passage you linked to suggests it is a misconception. It seems that there is that distinction between sacrifices for your current wrongdoings and for some general assumed apparently inherent evilness, which I now understand does not exist in Judaism. 

That's not it at all. What it means is that because of Adam and Eve's sin, death entered the world. Before then they had eternal life. Because of the original sin, and we are all descendants from Adam, his sin affects us all. Children don't sin, but because they're human like we are, they will sin at some point because none of us are perfect.

Peergint, Ok, I am with you so far. But if that's the interpretation, why do we still need Jesus as redeemer of said sin? Why not cut out the middle man and make it just about g-d and the person? And if Adam's sin means we are all going to die (but weren't before), how do we connect that to sinning in general? What is that redemption that only Jesus can achieve? And why can people not do that themselves? 


I agree that the idea of being born a "sinner" is off-putting. I am not sure if it doesn't mean the same thing, though (the inclination of sinning, which indeed seems to be a human trait, just like children need to be taught ethics and responsible behavior or might end up hurting others if let run wild, versus some inherited guilt). It seems so destructive and seems to have led to progressively more authoritarian theological beliefs with each new "iteration".

On a personal level, Judaism seems so much more life affirming, affirming that people are humans and can fail, but always can better themselves, and  that it just depends on their efforts, which are seen by g-d.

Hi a_Sarah, 
You said, "But it makes sense for the answer to "why one needs to accept Jesus" - Christianity claims that Jesus died for our sins and you only need to accept Jesus in order to be redeemed from original sin that we apparently all inherited. Is that correct, regarding the Christian interpretation?"
Not quite. We, Christians, believe that Jesus died to redeem us from all sin, past, present and future. You don't have to "do" anything to receive salvation. You only need to believe.

You quote Genesis 8:21. God said He will not smite the earth with flooding again. He had punished man for his sin by the flood where only Noah and his family were saved by building an ark as God had directed him. This has to do with sin, not the original sin. Man had become very sinful, rather as we have become today.

Your next statement says: I know (not in detail) about the stories of Sodom & Gomorrha and the flood, but I understood it as consequences to very tangible and manifest sins, with lots of opportunity to save yourself and/or better the (very real) behavior (that you yourself decided to cause).  This is a theme that I find  throughout what I have learned about Judaism so far - basically g-d reminding you that you have the tools to be decent, so please do so (or occasionally suffer the consequences). Are there any passages where g-d punishes for anything other than actual wrongdoings? 

This suggests that we can save ourselves, (Moderators Add - According to Christianity) which we cannot and that we have to do something, as in works not faith. God always chastised the Israelites. They had been rescued from the Egyptians and were promised a land of milk and honey, but on the way there they sinned. When Moses went up the mountain to get the 10 commandments from God, Aaron made a golden calf for them to worship, instead of the one true God. After they sent 10 scouts into Canaan, 8 came back and said that they could not enter because the people there were giants. So they didn't go and God made them travel in the wilderness for 40 years as punishment for their unbelief. God doesn't punish for doing nothing wrong.

Regarding your comments about a redeemer. We believe that God sent His one and only begotten Son that whoever would believe in Him would have eternal life. The parable about the vineyard owner in the New Testament helps explain a little more. Luke 20:9-15. When the Israelites were in bondage in Egypt, they were told by Moses that God was going to free them and that they must observe the passover when the Lord visited all the firstborn of the land in the tenth plague and everyone had to sprinkle the blood of the lambs on the doorposts. This meant that God would not touch the firstborn in those homes. We believe Jesus is the passover Lamb for all people. In other words no other sacrifice is necessary because He took the punishment for our sins upon Himself. (Moderator Note - What does the Passover Lamb have to do with sin?)

Regarding the original sin and subsequent sin. God knew that man could not keep His commandments. So He made a covenant with I believe Jacob, whereby an animal was cut in two but before Jacob could walk through the two halves to initiate the covenant God caused him to fall into a sleep. Then God Himself walked through the two halves. This meant that God made the covenant, but Jacob didn't. (Moderator Note - Can you please show us a reference to this in the Hebrew bible?)Therefore to free us from sin, God kept His covenant with us by sending His Son to be our sacrifice, knowing if He hadn't not one person would be saved as we have all sinned. God, being just and the only one who can just because He alone is perfect, He requires a sacrifice. (Moderator Note - This is based on Christian theology and is not consistent with what G-d teaches in the Hebrew bible)

The law convicts us all, but because of Jesus and the grace of God, we are not under the law but under grace. (Moderator Note - Again, this is Christian theology and has no basis in the Hebrew bible)

I have explained from what Christians believe in answer to your questions and I am more than happy to answer as best I can any other questions, but I am conscious that this is a Jewish website promoting Judaism and not Christianity.

a_Sarah,
As my posts are edited or deleted I am obviously breaking the very stringent of rules of this forum.
It's up to the moderator/s but it simply closes down discussion.
I would be happy to discuss anything elsewhere if you wish. If not that's fine too.

This suggests that we can save ourselves, ([b]Moderators Add - According to Christianity) [/b]Can I ask then, do you believe you can save yourselves?

What does the Passover Lamb have to do with sin?
Exodus 12:5. Your lamb shall be without blemish... In Christianity this means without sin.

Then God Himself walked through the two halves. This meant that God made the covenant, but Jacob didn't. (Moderator Note - Can you please show us a reference to this in the Hebrew bible?) My mistake, this was Abram. Genesis 15:17-18. Now it came to pass that the sun had set, and it was dark, and behold, a smoking furnace and a fire brand, which passed between these parts. יזוַיְהִ֤י הַשֶּׁ֨מֶשׁ֙ בָּ֔אָה וַֽעֲלָטָ֖ה הָיָ֑ה וְהִנֵּ֨ה תַנּ֤וּר עָשָׁן֙ וְלַפִּ֣יד אֵ֔שׁ אֲשֶׁ֣ר עָבַ֔ר בֵּ֖ין הַגְּזָרִ֥ים הָאֵֽלֶּה:
On that day, the Lord formed a covenant with Abram, saying, "To your seed I have given this land, from the river of Egypt until the great river, the Euphrates river. יחבַּיּ֣וֹם הַה֗וּא כָּרַ֧ת יְהֹוָ֛ה אֶת־אַבְרָ֖ם בְּרִ֣ית לֵאמֹ֑ר לְזַרְעֲךָ֗ נָתַ֨תִּי֙ אֶת־הָאָ֣רֶץ הַזֹּ֔את מִנְּהַ֣ר מִצְרַ֔יִם עַד־הַנָּהָ֥ר הַגָּדֹ֖ל נְהַר־פְּרָֽת:
The firebrand was God. God also appeared to Moses as fire in the burning bush. Only God made the journey in the symbols of smoke and fire thus forming the lasting covenant between Himself and Abram (Abraham)

Therefore to free us from sin, God kept His covenant with us by sending His Son to be our sacrifice, knowing if He hadn't not one person would be saved as we have all sinned. God, being just and the only one who can just because He alone is perfect, He requires a sacrifice. (Moderator Note - This is based on Christian theology and is not consistent with what G-d teaches in the Hebrew bible) Please show me what the Hebrew Bible teaches.

The law convicts us all, but because of Jesus and the grace of God, we are not under the law but under grace. (Moderator Note - Again, this is Christian theology and has no basis in the Hebrew bible) Does the Hebrew Bible teach anything about grace or does it only speak of the law?

[Jason]

Peergint,

Seeing your comments above about irks me to the point of just asking you to leave. If you cannot control yourself in your attempts to convert people, this isn't a forum for you. We do not allow proselytization. If you don't like it, you know where the 'delete my account' button is.

I'm all about conversation, but when people come here and violate our way of functioning and then cry foul... sorry, no compassion from me. You don't need to be here, and we don't need to entertain you. So, either you abide by our long-standing decision not to let people presume the truth of a religion other than Judaism on our JEWISH forum, or go some place else. That's a rule that isn't going to change.

[searchinmyroots]

This suggests that we can save ourselves, ([b]Moderators Add - According to Christianity) [/b]Can I ask then, do you believe you can save yourselves?

What does the Passover Lamb have to do with sin?
Exodus 12:5. Your lamb shall be without blemish... In Christianity this means without sin.

Then God Himself walked through the two halves. This meant that God made the covenant, but Jacob didn't. (Moderator Note - Can you please show us a reference to this in the Hebrew bible?) My mistake, this was Abram. Genesis 15:17-18. Now it came to pass that the sun had set, and it was dark, and behold, a smoking furnace and a fire brand, which passed between these parts. יזוַיְהִ֤י הַשֶּׁ֨מֶשׁ֙ בָּ֔אָה וַֽעֲלָטָ֖ה הָיָ֑ה וְהִנֵּ֨ה תַנּ֤וּר עָשָׁן֙ וְלַפִּ֣יד אֵ֔שׁ אֲשֶׁ֣ר עָבַ֔ר בֵּ֖ין הַגְּזָרִ֥ים הָאֵֽלֶּה:
On that day, the Lord formed a covenant with Abram, saying, "To your seed I have given this land, from the river of Egypt until the great river, the Euphrates river. יחבַּיּ֣וֹם הַה֗וּא כָּרַ֧ת יְהֹוָ֛ה אֶת־אַבְרָ֖ם בְּרִ֣ית לֵאמֹ֑ר לְזַרְעֲךָ֗ נָתַ֨תִּי֙ אֶת־הָאָ֣רֶץ הַזֹּ֔את מִנְּהַ֣ר מִצְרַ֔יִם עַד־הַנָּהָ֥ר הַגָּדֹ֖ל נְהַר־פְּרָֽת:
The firebrand was God. God also appeared to Moses as fire in the burning bush. Only God made the journey in the symbols of smoke and fire thus forming the lasting covenant between Himself and Abram (Abraham)

Therefore to free us from sin, God kept His covenant with us by sending His Son to be our sacrifice, knowing if He hadn't not one person would be saved as we have all sinned. God, being just and the only one who can just because He alone is perfect, He requires a sacrifice. (Moderator Note - This is based on Christian theology and is not consistent with what G-d teaches in the Hebrew bible) Please show me what the Hebrew Bible teaches.

The law convicts us all, but because of Jesus and the grace of God, we are not under the law but under grace. (Moderator Note - Again, this is Christian theology and has no basis in the Hebrew bible) Does the Hebrew Bible teach anything about grace or does it only speak of the law?

1- Save ourselves from what? We can most certainly change ourselves.

2 - Well that's strange, since when does a lamb sin? And to repeat, the Passover has nothing to do with sin.

3- Not sure of what your point is. There were several covenants made in the Hebrew bible.

4- If I'm not mistaken, this was already discussed. G-d does not require a sacrifice. There are many, many passages in the Hebrew bible where people are forgiven for sin without a sacrifice and we are specifically told how to do so!

I ask you, how were the Jews forgiven for their sins during the time between the 1st and 2nd Temple?

5- All you have to do is read Psalm 19 and 119, the longest Psalm by King David and you'll get a very good picture of how the law/instructions are held in very high regard, it doesn't convict us as Christianity teaches.

For example -

Psalm 19:8 The law of the Lord is perfect, restoring the soul; the testimony of the Lord is faithful, making the simple one wise.

9- The orders of the Lord are upright, causing the heart to rejoice; the commandment of the Lord is clear, enlightening the eyes.

11- They are to be desired more than gold, yea more than much fine gold, and are sweeter than honey and drippings of honeycombs.

Of course there is grace as well, we see that in many places in the Hebrew bible where G-d forgives people for the only reason that He waned to.

Contrary to the teachings of Christianity that our works are useless, G-d tells us in the Hebrew bible that it is our actions and keeping His commandments that count. Deuteronomy 6:24,25 for example -

24 - And the Lord commanded us to perform all these statutes, to fear the Lord, our God, for our good all the days, to keep us alive, as of this day.

25 - And it will be for our merit that we keep to observe all these commandments before the Lord, our God, as He has commanded us.

Why did Christianity change what G-d taught us here and in many other places??

[searchinmyroots]

Peergint,

Seeing your comments above about irks me to the point of just asking you to leave. If you cannot control yourself in your attempts to convert people, this isn't a forum for you. We do not allow proselytization. If you don't like it, you know where the 'delete my account' button is.

I'm all about conversation, but when people come here and violate our way of functioning and then cry foul... sorry, no compassion from me. You don't need to be here, and we don't need to entertain you. So, either you abide by our long-standing decision not to let people presume the truth of a religion other than Judaism on our JEWISH forum, or go some place else. That's a rule that isn't going to change.

Jason,

I tossed this around too, but realized he is responding to Sarah's questions.

At first I deleted his post but then released it with Moderator comments.

[Peergint]

This suggests that we can save ourselves, ([b]Moderators Add - According to Christianity) [/b]Can I ask then, do you believe you can save yourselves?

What does the Passover Lamb have to do with sin?
Exodus 12:5. Your lamb shall be without blemish... In Christianity this means without sin.

Then God Himself walked through the two halves. This meant that God made the covenant, but Jacob didn't. (Moderator Note - Can you please show us a reference to this in the Hebrew bible?) My mistake, this was Abram. Genesis 15:17-18. Now it came to pass that the sun had set, and it was dark, and behold, a smoking furnace and a fire brand, which passed between these parts. יזוַיְהִ֤י הַשֶּׁ֨מֶשׁ֙ בָּ֔אָה וַֽעֲלָטָ֖ה הָיָ֑ה וְהִנֵּ֨ה תַנּ֤וּר עָשָׁן֙ וְלַפִּ֣יד אֵ֔שׁ אֲשֶׁ֣ר עָבַ֔ר בֵּ֖ין הַגְּזָרִ֥ים הָאֵֽלֶּה:
On that day, the Lord formed a covenant with Abram, saying, "To your seed I have given this land, from the river of Egypt until the great river, the Euphrates river. יחבַּיּ֣וֹם הַה֗וּא כָּרַ֧ת יְהֹוָ֛ה אֶת־אַבְרָ֖ם בְּרִ֣ית לֵאמֹ֑ר לְזַרְעֲךָ֗ נָתַ֨תִּי֙ אֶת־הָאָ֣רֶץ הַזֹּ֔את מִנְּהַ֣ר מִצְרַ֔יִם עַד־הַנָּהָ֥ר הַגָּדֹ֖ל נְהַר־פְּרָֽת:
The firebrand was God. God also appeared to Moses as fire in the burning bush. Only God made the journey in the symbols of smoke and fire thus forming the lasting covenant between Himself and Abram (Abraham)

Therefore to free us from sin, God kept His covenant with us by sending His Son to be our sacrifice, knowing if He hadn't not one person would be saved as we have all sinned. God, being just and the only one who can just because He alone is perfect, He requires a sacrifice. (Moderator Note - This is based on Christian theology and is not consistent with what G-d teaches in the Hebrew bible) Please show me what the Hebrew Bible teaches.

The law convicts us all, but because of Jesus and the grace of God, we are not under the law but under grace. (Moderator Note - Again, this is Christian theology and has no basis in the Hebrew bible) Does the Hebrew Bible teach anything about grace or does it only speak of the law?

1- Save ourselves from what? We can most certainly change ourselves.

2 - Well that's strange, since when does a lamb sin? And to repeat, the Passover has nothing to do with sin.

3- Not sure of what your point is. There were several covenants made in the Hebrew bible.

4- If I'm not mistaken, this was already discussed. G-d does not require a sacrifice. There are many, many passages in the Hebrew bible where people are forgiven for sin without a sacrifice and we are specifically told how to do so!

I ask you, how were the Jews forgiven for their sins during the time between the 1st and 2nd Temple?

5- All you have to do is read Psalm 19 and 119, the longest Psalm by King David and you'll get a very good picture of how the law/instructions are held in very high regard, it doesn't convict us as Christianity teaches.

For example -

Psalm 19:8 The law of the Lord is perfect, restoring the soul; the testimony of the Lord is faithful, making the simple one wise.

9- The orders of the Lord are upright, causing the heart to rejoice; the commandment of the Lord is clear, enlightening the eyes.

11- They are to be desired more than gold, yea more than much fine gold, and are sweeter than honey and drippings of honeycombs.

Of course there is grace as well, we see that in many places in the Hebrew bible where G-d forgives people for the only reason that He waned to.

Contrary to the teachings of Christianity that our works are useless, G-d tells us in the Hebrew bible that it is our actions and keeping His commandments that count. Deuteronomy 6:24,25 for example -

24 - And the Lord commanded us to perform all these statutes, to fear the Lord, our God, for our good all the days, to keep us alive, as of this day.

25 - And it will be for our merit that we keep to observe all these commandments before the Lord, our God, as He has commanded us.

Why did Christianity change what G-d taught us here and in many other places??

1- Save ourselves from what? We can most certainly change ourselves. God's judgement on the world for it's sin. Do you believe there will be a day of reckoning? Can we change ourselves so that we don't sin? If we can, fine but what about the sins we have already committed? I agree we can change ourselves but I believe only to a degree. This is where the original sin comes in. I believe we are born with a sinful nature. We just cannot help ourselves. We are tempted and we sin. We are convicted by the law are we not? Could the Israelites stop sinning, even after they were given the ten commandment? When Moses was still up the mountain being given the commandments by God, they were already convincing Aaron to make for themselves a golden calf to worship. Even though they were and Jews today are God's chosen people, we all, Gentiles alike are still sinning and the world is a very dangerous place because of it. Where is the love, patience, kindness, compassion, gentleness, faithfulness, joy and peace? It is very scarce and when God sees a wicked world like this is, what must He be thinking?

2 - Well that's strange, since when does a lamb sin? And to repeat, the Passover has nothing to do with sin. It's true, lambs don't sin, but neither do calves, doves, goats etc.  Wasn't a goat used as a scapegoat and sent out of the camp as a sin offering to take away the sins of the people? There were very many sacrifices for sin. 
Leviticus 16: 7-10. 7 He shall take the two goats and present them before the Lord at the door of the tabernacle of meeting. 8 Then Aaron shall cast lots for the two goats: one lot for the Lord and the other lot for the scapegoat. 9 And Aaron shall bring the goat on which the Lord’s lot fell, and offer it as a sin offering. 10 But the goat on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat shall be presented alive before the Lord, to make atonement upon it, and to let it go as the scapegoat into the wilderness.
I will do more research on the Passover lamb subject.

3- Not sure of what your point is. There were several covenants made in the Hebrew bible. I was simply saying that God, being perfect is capable of keeping His part of the covenant and we are not. God doesn't and cannot sin, but we do everyday, whether by thought, word, or deed. That's all I was saying.

4- If I'm not mistaken, this was already discussed. G-d does not require a sacrifice. There are many, many passages in the Hebrew bible where people are forgiven for sin without a sacrifice and we are specifically told how to do so! Would you please show me one or two examples of this so that I can see it and understand it?

I ask you, how were the Jews forgiven for their sins during the time between the 1st and 2nd Temple? In Jesus time they were offering sacrifices in the temple, which I think was the second temple. Please advise if I am incorrect on this. Weren't the sacrifices sin offerings as well as burnt offerings?

5- All you have to do is read Psalm 19 and 119, the longest Psalm by King David and you'll get a very good picture of how the law/instructions are held in very high regard, it doesn't convict us as Christianity teaches. Are you then not living according to the laws of Moses, except for sacrifices? You still keep the sabbath which is a lasting covenant isn't it? If not, which laws are you obeying? You still keep the passover don't you with unleavened bread? Am I wrong in my statement?

For example - 

Psalm 19:8 The law of the Lord is perfect, restoring the soul; the testimony of the Lord is faithful, making the simple one wise.

9- The orders of the Lord are upright, causing the heart to rejoice; the commandment of the Lord is clear, enlightening the eyes.

11- They are to be desired more than gold, yea more than much fine gold, and are sweeter than honey and drippings of honeycombs.
Couldn't agree more with these scriptures.

Of course there is grace as well, we see that in many places in the Hebrew bible where G-d forgives people for the only reason that He waned to.
Certainly cannot deny this.
Contrary to the teachings of Christianity that our works are useless, G-d tells us in the Hebrew bible that it is our actions and keeping His commandments that count. Deuteronomy 6:24,25 for example - 

24 - And the Lord commanded us to perform all these statutes, to fear the Lord, our God, for our good all the days, to keep us alive, as of this day.

25 - And it will be for our merit that we keep to observe all these commandments before the Lord, our God, as He has commanded us.
Very good scriptures and I cannot argue against what God has said. 

However, how do you explain the blessings for obedience and curses for disobedience in Deuteronomy 28? Aren't the curses punishment for disobedience?

Why did Christianity change what G-d taught us here and in many other places?? I don't think Christianity changed what God taught you. It's just that Christians believe in a New Covenant (Testament) and that Jesus fulfilled the Old Covenant (Testament). I also think it is a different perspective. Am I right in saying you guys don't accept any other translation or interpretation that differs from the Hebrew Bible?

There are many bibles, in my case I believe the NKJV is the most accurate, but I will read others if I don't understand something so that I get a better understanding through the way things are written.