+- Jewish Forums (https://www.thehebrewcafe.com/forum)
+-- Forum: Main Forums (https://www.thehebrewcafe.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?fid=1)
+--- Forum: Counter-Missionary Forum (https://www.thehebrewcafe.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?fid=27)
+--- Thread: Judaism vs Christianity (/showthread.php?tid=1040)
RE: Judaism vs Christianity - Blue Bird - 07-15-2022
I actually like talking to Jehovah's Witnesses. Some may have different experiences, but I've met honest people. We sat together and read the Bible and listened to each other's stories. It didn't matter that I don't want their teachings.
Yes, in my view, the Christian Bible should be read and dealt with like the Hebrew Bible. Other than that, I see no real reason to quote or explain any of this. The Hebrew Bible is sacred (and I agree with that) and things that appear to be contradictions are just not understood yet. And the Christian Bible....? Here it is obviously not the case for you. So, no, it's a battle against windmills.
I don't want to prove that the Christian Bible is right and your questions put me in that position.
Of course, I don't have all the answers, and I'm happy to admit it. But that's not why I find this discussion uncomfortable. I may be wrong, but you said earlier that you are spending a lot of money and energy to suppress Christianity among Jews, and your questions are all aimed at exposing that Christians are wrong.
I remember that in the case of Christians who wanted to evangelize here, you also ended the discussion. I don't want to make you feel bad, that's for sure.
RE: Judaism vs Christianity - searchinmyroots - 07-15-2022
"I may be wrong, but you said earlier that you are spending a lot of money and energy to suppress Christianity among Jews, and your questions are all aimed at exposing that Christians are wrong"
I said that??
I've been on these forums for many years and never recall saying anything like that. Of course I don't remember every post I made and when I first started here I may have been a little "aggressive".
I remember posting how certain Christian groups were spending millions of dollars to evangelize to the Jews and actually witnessed a lot of it as I roamed the streets of NYC. Their called it "Behold Your God" if I'm not mistaken. That's how I started to learn, from the questions they asked me. I had to read up to see what they were referring to.
I do not ever remember saying anything about me personally spending a lot of money, energy and efforts to aim my questions to expose Christians are wrong.
I still do not understand what is wrong with with the question I asked about Immanuel? I hear songs every holiday and do not understand how it relates except for that 1 verse in Matthew.
I don't think you can prove the Christian bible is right, just as I cannot prove the Hebrew bible is right. It has to do with studying what is written as G-d asks us to do.
If you look back there was rarely a time when I shut down a thread unless things got out of hand. I'm not one to pat myself on the back, but many here, Jews, Christians, Muslims and others have mentioned that I seem to be the most tolerant, to give people a chance to say what they mean and not just cut them off.
All I ask is for fair conversation or debate. I like to, as I think you do as well, focus on one question at a time and close it out, even if it winds up that we agree to disagree. Too many times, people come to the forum and just post verses upon verses upon verses and don't let you reply without adding more verses. Then when you start to reply, they disappear.
I've been discussing these issues for over 30 years, since I was first challenged about my own bible. But that doesn't mean I'm not ready to learn an understand others and what they have to say. Of course a lot is repetitive, but some is not.
So we aren't looking for people to evangelize here and we will address questions and claims about Judaism. We are here to have discussions, answer questions and hopefully have some fun, enjoy each others company and learn from one another.
RE: Judaism vs Christianity - Blue Bird - 07-15-2022
So isn't it true that you are looking for arguments to prove that the Christian Bible twists the Hebrew Bible?
I understood your post that way that you pay for the fight against Christianity... post No 13
https://www.thehebrewcafe.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=623&page=2
Yes, it does cause a lot of time, energy and money that could be well spent elsewhere. If millions upon millions of dollars weren't spent by Christian organizations who use the money to convert Jews, we wouldn't have to do so.
RE: Judaism vs Christianity - searchinmyroots - 07-15-2022
Okay, now I see where you go that from.
When I said "we wouldn't have to do so", I was referring to Counter Missionary groups such as Outreach Judaism and Jews for Judaism to name a couple.
They are not "paying to fight Christianity as much as they are paying to defend Judaism.
They wouldn't even have to exist if missionaries didn't bombard the Jewish people spending millions upon millions of dollars trying to convert them. I was there, in NYC when the Behold Your God campaign set out.
I'm not looking for arguments, I'm looking for the truth. Sorry you see it that way.
If the Hebrew bible is the original and then other books come out hundreds of years later that use what is written in the Hebrew bible and change the wording or even say things that aren't even written in it, then it needs to be addressed.
Why is that an argument?
Why is it an argument to truthfully say that Isaiah 7 says "and she shall call him Immanuel" and question why another book that comes along later changes it?
That's an argument?
Seems like a question to me!
RE: Judaism vs Christianity - Dana - 07-15-2022
The video in the original post which is in very good taste, was placed in the Counter-Missionary section of a Jewish forum. Appropriately placed because this is where theological differences are to be discussed. A Christian taking umbrage in the counter missionary section of a Jewish forum is strange to me.
Please educate yourself on the meaning of counter missionary. Better yet, purchase Rabbi Tovia Singer’s excellent book Let’s Get Biblical - Why Doesn’t Judaism Accept the Christian Messiah.
This section of the forum allows for expressing theological differences. Namely, Judaism taken from the perspective of the Torah and Tanach.
RE: Judaism vs Christianity - Blue Bird - 07-15-2022
Thanks searchinmyroots for your reply.
Dana, the topic is Judaism vs. Christianity. Why should it be strange if I speak from my point of view as a Christian?
RE: Judaism vs Christianity - Blue Bird - 07-16-2022
(07-13-2022, 03:41 PM)searchinmyroots Wrote: Blue Bird,
Well, I only want to go by what G-d's word says in the Hebrew bible. I don't want my feelings or opinions to get in the way of what He is teaching me.
So if it repeats a common theme such as what is written in Isaiah 1, II Chronicles 6 and 7, Daniel 4 and I Kings 8 for example, then that is where my heart is.
So let's move on to another topic.
This is something I do not understand, why Jesus is referred to as Immanuel. I know Matthew 1 seems to quote Isaiah 7:14 as a reference to Jesus (I know Immanuel means "G-d is with us" but many Hebrew names have meaning. Joshua means G-d saves but the Christian bible doesn't call him Joshua), but a careful look at the passage says some things that don't add up in my opinion.
For instance -
If you read what is going on in it's entirety, it is about a child that will be born and there will be a sign to give reassurance to King Ahaz. The way I see it, the sign is written in verses 15 and 16, not 14. A sign is something you can see and verses 15 and 16 explain it very well -
15 - Cream and honey he shall eat when he knows to reject bad and choose good 16 - For, when the lad does not yet know to reject bad and choose good, the land whose two kings you dread, shall be abandoned."
It's clear to me that is a comforting sign for King Ahaz for the time, not verse 14 as a sign for something that may happen hundreds of years later. What kind of comfort would that be?
Also, verse 14 specifically says "and she shall call his name Immanuel."
Please correct me if I am wrong, but I cannot find anywhere in the Christian bible where Mary calls Jesus Immanuel. I also do not understand why Christian bibles change the word from "she" to "they". I also don't see where anyone in the Christian bible calls Jesus Immanuel, except for Matthew's reference. So who are they, which of course isn't the correct definition.
Here is what I would roughly answer.
https://steppesoffaith.medium.com/was-jesus-supposed-to-be-called-immanuel-ff1e884efb36
RE: Judaism vs Christianity - searchinmyroots - 07-17-2022
Interesting article Blue Bird, thanks for your response.
So the writer is basically saying, in his opinion, calling Jesus Immanuel is describing his nature.
There still is a discrepancy though.
The writer seems to say what is written in Isaiah 7:14 is only about Jesus. If I'm not mistaken, that isn't really true because Isaiah specifically says in verse 16 -
"For, when the lad does not yet know to reject bad and choose good, the land whose two kings you dread, shall be abandoned."
From what I understand, there are 2 biblical accounts that show the prophecy to be fulfilled, where the 2 armies from the North were defeated and unsuccessful on their siege of Jerusalem. King Ahaz clearly feared them -
2Kings 15:29-30 and 2Kings 16:9
The Hebrew bible shows the prophecy was fulfilled in King Ahaz's days.
How does that coincide with what Christians believe the passage is saying to be about Jesus, 700 years later?
RE: Judaism vs Christianity - Blue Bird - 07-17-2022
I assume you want to bring us to this discussion
https://outreachjudaism.org/dual-prophecy-virgin-birth/
Yes, I think prophecies have more than one future fulfillment. Usually one spoken directly into the current situation and another or more than one further fulfillment, like a foreshadowing of a climax of a future event.
The tabernacle and the life of Jonah are also a sign and a prophecy.
RE: Judaism vs Christianity - searchinmyroots - 07-17-2022
No, wasn't going to but I already knew about that response.
So the glaring question is then - if it is a dual prophecy, then a virgin birth really isn't that miraculous because it already happened 700 years earlier, correct?
Although that is not what the Hebrew bible says because the Hebrew word for virgin is never used as it is in other places.
And we still don't know why the Christian bible changes the meaning from "she" called to "they" called.