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+--- Thread: Isaiah 53 Verse 10 (/showthread.php?tid=494)
RE: Isaiah 53 Verse 10 - JudaicChristian - 06-08-2025
(06-08-2025, 11:40 AM)BlueBird2 Wrote:(06-08-2025, 11:27 AM)searchinmyroots Wrote:(06-07-2025, 02:21 PM)JudaicChristian Wrote: A suffering Messiah was not what the Jewish people wanted to hear or believe.
Luke 22:67
“If you are the Messiah,” they said, “tell us.” Yahshua answered, “If I tell you, you will not believe me,...
The Jewish people believe in what the Hebrew bible says what the world will be like when the expected messiah arrives. It has nothing to do with what we want to hear.
Quoting Luke is irrelevant being it is not part of the Hebrew bible.
I admit, it's a bit cheeky of me to point out these passages in your Bible...
Who would have believed our report, and to whom was the arm of the Lord revealed? (Jesaja 1:1)
And He said, "Go and say to this people, 'Indeed you hear, but you do not understand; indeed you see, but you do not know. This people's heart is becoming fat, and his ears are becoming heavy, and his eyes are becoming sealed, lest he see with his eyes, and hear with his ears, and his heart understand, and he repent and be healed. (Jesaja 6:9+10)
[*]Psalm 118:22
The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone;
[*]Matthew 21:42
Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures: “‘The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone; the Lord has done this, and it is marvelous in our eyes’?
[*]Mark 12:10
Haven’t you read this passage of Scripture: “‘The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone;
[*]Luke 20:17
Jesus looked directly at them and asked, “Then what is the meaning of that which is written: “‘The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone’?
[*]Acts 4:11
Jesus is “‘the stone you builders rejected, which has become the cornerstone.’
[*]1 Peter 2:7
Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe, “The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,”
RE: Isaiah 53 Verse 10 - rosends - 06-08-2025
why would anyone think that 118:22 has to do with a messianic figure?
RE: Isaiah 53 Verse 10 - ThomasDGW - 06-08-2025
(06-07-2025, 02:17 PM)JudaicChristian Wrote:The Hebrew word used for spoil in Isaiah 53:12 is something like shalal, and means something that is taken by force, usually in battle. I don't think the gift of life would fit that word.(06-07-2025, 01:08 AM)ThomasDGW Wrote:(05-26-2025, 04:36 PM)searchinmyroots Wrote:(05-26-2025, 02:16 PM)JudaicChristian Wrote: Verse 12 is the last verse.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,[g]
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,[h]
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.
Thanks.
So if this pertains to the messiah as you say, when did this happen - " Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
and he will divide the spoils with the strong"
What spoils did the messiah divide with the strong?
So, based on your understanding of the passage, if this pertains to Israel as you say, when did this happen, and what spoils did Israel divide with the strong?
On the other hand, it seems to me that the passages is saying that dividing the spoils with the strong is to come AFTER this servant poured out his soul unto death. Thus, there is no reason to expect that dividing the spoils has to have already happened. It seems to me that the Messiah will divide the spoils at the seventh trumpet, when he receives the kingdoms of this world, according to Revelation 11:15.
I think it is the gift of life through the New Covenant. No greater gift than life.
RE: Isaiah 53 Verse 10 - ThomasDGW - 06-08-2025
(06-08-2025, 11:24 AM)searchinmyroots Wrote:I did not intend to put words into your mouth. The view that Isaiah 53 speaks of Israel has been represented on this forum as being the Jewish view, and I was unaware that you do not hold to that Jewish view. My question should be directed to those who hold that view.(06-07-2025, 01:08 AM)ThomasDGW Wrote: So, based on your understanding of the passage, if this pertains to Israel as you say, when did this happen, and what spoils did Israel divide with the strong?
On the other hand, it seems to me that the passages is saying that dividing the spoils with the strong is to come AFTER this servant poured out his soul unto death. Thus, there is no reason to expect that dividing the spoils has to have already happened. It seems to me that the Messiah will divide the spoils at the seventh trumpet, when he receives the kingdoms of this world, according to Revelation 11:15.
I don't recall saying this passage pertains to Israel, I was referring to what some people think it means regarding a messiah.
Revelation is not part of the Hebrew bible so it is irrelevant.
I was answering your question directed to a person who believes that Isaiah 53 refers to Jesus the Messiah. I think that you are reading into my comments an intention to prove that Jesus is the Messiah. If that were my intention, then I should be looking for statements or facts that you accept as authoritative. But that is not my intention. My intention is to show that the statements and facts about Jesus that I regard as authoritative fit harmoniously with the Hebrew prophecies.
The counter-missionary approach seems to be to go through Hebrew scriptures and show that beliefs and doctrines about Jesus in the NT or in the Christian church clash with Hebrew scriptures. I am simply responding that they don't, that there is coherency. Most Christian missionaries seem to take the approach that the claimed fulfillment of 300 Hebrew prophecies by Jesus in the NT constitute 300 individual proofs that Jesus has to be the Messiah. I see it completely differently.
Take Hosea 11:1, about God calling his son out of Egypt when Israel was a child. To me this is giving a precedent, that if someone is God's son, then God will call him out of Egypt (spiritually or physically). It does not say that everyone that God calls out of Egypt is God's son or is the Messiah. So, it is WRONG for the missionaries to say that since Jesus was called out of Egypt, that this fulfills Hosea 11:1 as a Messianic proof. Instead, the narrative that Jesus was called out of Egypt fulfills a prophetic REQUIREMENT for Jesus to be God's son.
So, Isaiah 53:9 speaks of this servant, whoever he is, as making his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death. The NT does not state that Jesus was buried first in the criminal pit, but on the other hand it DOES allow it. That does not prove that Jesus is the servant; it means that he is NOT disqualified by the prophetic statement. Isaiah 53:12 speaks of the servant dividing the spoil. Jesus is described in Revelation as receiving the spoil of this world, in the context of the battle of Armageddon. That does not prove that Jesus is the servant; it means that he is NOT disqualified by the prophetic statement. On the other hand, I think that Israel IS disqualified by the spoil clause from being the servant.
I am calling for both missionaries AND counter-missionaries to be honest. So far, no one is listening to my pleas.
RE: Isaiah 53 Verse 10 - ThomasDGW - 06-08-2025
(06-08-2025, 02:28 PM)rosends Wrote: why would anyone think that 118:22 has to do with a messianic figure?
The people are praising God for salvation from exile, getting ready to enter the temple, saying, Save now, Make prosperous now, and do they say in the middle of that, We have become the cornerstone???
I think that anyone who views this a bit incongruous would consider the possibility that the cornerstone could refer to the Messiah.
RE: Isaiah 53 Verse 10 - searchinmyroots - 06-08-2025
This thread started many years ago.
It was about the servant being guilty of sin.