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Isaiah 53 Verse 10
I just want to confirm the meaning of the Hebrew word "asham" used in this verse.

From what I understand it means guilt and it is also related to the guilt offering, meaning the person is guilty of sin.

In this case, it is the servant.

If that is true, then how could any Christian possibly think Isaiah 53 is about Jesus?

The servant is guilty of sin, and Christian theology teaches Jesus was sinless.
אִם-תָּשִׂים אָשָׁם נַפְשׁוֺ  Interesting question.  My translation is up for correction, please.  The word asham, with two kamats is a noun. Ben Yehuda's dictionary gives the definition as, guilt; or guilt sacrifice.

By using the form guilt sacrifice the verse could be translated as, if he will place his soul as a guilt offering.  This way guiltless and as a vicarious offering?  I'm not sure how the Hebrew word for he will place or he will put תּשִׂים is used differently in some English translations.   I hope Jason weighs in with the correct grammar and context.

While mulling this over some more, I thought the JPS Tanach had the closest English translation to the Hebrew. But the Lord chose to crush him by disease, that if he made himself an offering for guilt...They render the word disease חֱלִי accurately, while it could not be Jesus because he had no disease. The NIV reads "to cause him to suffer," while the English here could be directed to be about Jesus.

To admit or acknowledge would be הודָה Hodah. The Stone Edition Tanach, Hashem desired to oppress him and He afflicted him; if his soul would acknowledge guilt...

While the verse is about Israel, why use the English verb afflicted when הֶחֱלִי (by disease) would be more accurate and eliminate confusion. I comment of course with a question.
Thanks Dana.

From the Complete Jewish Bible on the Chabad website, here is Rashi's explanation -

If his soul makes itself restitution, etc.: Said the Holy One, blessed be He, “I will see, if his soul will be given and delivered with My holiness to return it to Me as restitution for all that he betrayed Me, I will pay him his recompense, and he will see children, etc.” This word אָשָׁם is an expression of ransom that one gives to the one against when he sinned, amende in O.F., to free from faults, similar to the matter mentioned in the episode of the Philistines (I Sam. 6:3), “Do not send it away empty, but you shall send back with it a guilt offering (אָשָׁם).”
And here is an excerpt from Uri Yosef at The Jewish home website -

The respective translations of the Hebrew phrase, “אִ ם־תָּשׂ ִ ים אָ שָׁ ם ַפְ וֹשׁ“ (IM-taSIM aSHAM nafSHO), which is the statement of Condition A, are the source of the first significant discrepancy. The Jewish translation has “if his soul would acknowledge guilt", whereas the KJV has "when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin". The KJV translation casts the phrase in such a way as to continue with its message of a vicarious atonement by the servant – a concept that is contrary to what the Hebrew Bible teaches, wherein it is strictly forbidden. The problem stems from the fact that the Hebrew term אָ שָׁ ם (aSHAM) is rendered in the KJV as an offering for sin. Yet, when the term אָ שָׁ ם is used in the Hebrew Bible, it serves in two distinct applications: (1) אָ שָׁ ם is used to refer to a guilt offering, not a sin offering, brought by a sinner for the atonement of any one of a number of specific sins (e.g., intentional - Leviticus 5:15; unintentional - Numbers 6:12), and (2) אָ שָׁ ם is used to refer to a sin or an iniquity committed with intent (e.g., Jeremiah 51:5; Proverbs 14:9). In the correct context of the Hebrew phrase, and without violating what the Hebrew Bible teaches, it is impossible for someone to bring himself or herself as a guilt offering.

The structure of a verse in the form of a conditional statement, as is the case with Isaiah 53:10, is not an anomaly in the Hebrew Bible, as illustrated by the following examples (which are color-coded to emphasize their structure): Genesis 18:26 - And the Lord said, "IFI find in Sodom fifty righteous men within the city, THENI will forgive the entire place for their sake." Jeremiah 18:8 - IFthat nation, against whom I have pronounced, turns from its evil, THENI will relent of the evil that I intended to do to them. Clearly, the context of Isaiah 53:10 is that there is a reward being promised to Israel if the people admit their guilt and repent. Of what use would a reward be to the servant if he were to submit himself to be sacrificed? What is this reward?This reward, symbolized as Outcome B, is described in the remainder of the verse.
Thank you Searchin for those clear examples using context and language.  Especially noticing the other areas in the Tanach where the structure of the verses are in the conditional, followed up with the great question of what use would be a reward to the servant if he were to submit himself to be sacrificed. Context! Such an entirely different perspective from the Christian idea.
Thanks Dana.

I'm only as good as the resources are!
So if anyone wants to say Isaiah 53 is about Jesus, I would think verse 10 should be the only thing needed to discount that belief.
Yes, אָשָׁם certainly means "a guilt offering." I take נַפְשוֹ (feminine singular) as the subject of the verb תָּשִׂים.

If his soul will make a guilt offering...

It is common in the book of Leviticus to use the word "soul" as reference to a person who sins and needs to offer a sacrifice.

For example, Leviticus 2 begins with the word וְנֶ֗פֶשׁ כִּֽי־תַקְרִ֞יב קָרְבַּ֤ן מִנְחָה֙ לַֽיהוָ֔ה "and if a soul should offer an grain offering to the Lord..." It doesn't mean a disembodied soul, it means a "person." Similarly, Leviticus 4 opens with the idea that נֶ֗פֶשׁ כִּֽי־תֶחֱטָ֤א בִשְׁגָגָה֙ מִכֹּל֙ מִצְוֺ֣ת יְהוָ֔ה אֲשֶׁ֖ר לֹ֣א תֵֽעָשֶׂ֑ינָה "a soul that sins unintentionally from all the commandments of the Lord that must not be done..." Again, the soul doesn't sin - the person does. Ezekiel repeats this idea with his "the soul that sins will die," meaning the person himself.

Thus, by "if his soul will make," it means the person himself: "if he himself will make a guilt offering."

The KJV famously translated the verb as second-person, "if you (who?!?) will make his soul an offering for sin." That's not what it means.
Thanks Jason.

Well that concludes my Isaiah 53 discussions with Christians.

Who cares what the rest of the chapter is about?

If verse 10 specifically states the servant is guilty of sin, that seems to preclude Jesus from being the servant according to their theology.
But below it says: "he bore the sin of many..."
(09-02-2020, 01:55 AM)Ismq Wrote: But below it says: "he bore the sin of many..."

Are you referring to verse 11?

You have to read it in content.

Besides, that doesn't make a difference because the servant is still guilty of sin.

It's pretty clear what the Hebrew actually says.

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