Thousands Of Questions About God

[irmadlad]

Greetings, I come as an unbeliever/Seeker. I have been Speaking with RabiO and searchinmyroots prior to creating this thread. I have many, many unanswered questions. 

A little about my background. I was raised in a very oppressive, abusive, 'Christian' environment. I was once backhanded across the face for the audacity to question an almighty God, and what was being forced upon me. It really didn't make sense, even as a lad. Ever since then I have read and studied many religions, tho I am no theologian by any stretch of the imagination. I am just a man who reads prolifically, searching for what I call, the truth trifecta. The truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Truth, when you can find it, is great, but practically useless unless bolstered by the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Of the religions I have studied, I am embarrassed to say Judaism hasn't been one of them. So, please keep my religious background in mind during this discussion. RabiO commented on the length of my comments to him and searchinmyroots. Brevity is not an attribute that I possess. Mainly because it is quite difficult to express these things that trouble me in a few short sentences. I do beg of your patience in this matter. Being retired, I realize I probably have the most amount of disposable time than others. So, I do not make any demands on the immediacy of your replies and comments. 

I will return shortly to begin this discussion. At the moment, I am trying desperately to pass a kidney stone, and am in a lot of pain as anyone who has done so can attest. However, I wanted to get the ball rolling, as it were. 

Thank you for your time, patience, and hospitality.

[irmadlad]

I feel a wee bit better today, tho medicated. I wanted to go ahead and kick this off. 

I have recently learned from RabiO, that Judaism does not believe in an ultimate evil, whether he is called the Christian name Lucifer, or other. You do believe in Satan, which is an angel of God, sent to tempt and try mankind with a purpose unknown to me. I hope my understanding is somewhat correct. In doing a little reading on Judaism, you do not believe in a literal, eternal damnation, as presented by Christians. If my understanding is correct, Judaism does not recognize the New Testament, and views it as Christians would the Apocrypha: religious manuscripts, yes, but not pertinent to Judaism.

This solves a few problems for me, but introduces others into the equation. If there is an ultimate good yet no ultimate evil, this would seem to undo the very laws this universe is constrained to. For every positive electron, there must be a negative electron. Nature always seeks equilibrium, lest we implode and explode simultaneously and scatter our bits to the universe. How do you reconcile this?

I do not mean to bring up uncomfortable topics. However, my example will entail the closest thing I can think of in this mortal world that comes close to an ultimate evil. This would mean that when the Jews receive eternal reward, Hitler will also be present, just at a different level of separation from God.  Jehovah's Witness believe in annihilationism: the wicked face permanent destruction rather than eternal torture. Mormons believe in levels of separation from God: celestial, terrestrial, telestial kingdom, outer darkness, and a spirit prison which offers proxy baptisms. Each with their own version of eternal reward vs eternal damnation.

How does this coincide with Judaism? 

Thank you for your time and consideration.

[searchinmyroots]

I feel a wee bit better today, tho medicated. I wanted to go ahead and kick this off. 

I have recently learned from RabiO, that Judaism does not believe in an ultimate evil, whether he is called the Christian name Lucifer, or other. You do believe in Satan, which is an angel of God, sent to tempt and try mankind with a purpose unknown to me. I hope my understanding is somewhat correct. In doing a little reading on Judaism, you do not believe in a literal, eternal damnation, as presented by Christians. If my understanding is correct, Judaism does not recognize the New Testament, and views it as Christians would the Apocrypha: religious manuscripts, yes, but not pertinent to Judaism.

This solves a few problems for me, but introduces others into the equation. If there is an ultimate good yet no ultimate evil, this would seem to undo the very laws this universe is constrained to. For every positive electron, there must be a negative electron. Nature always seeks equilibrium, lest we implode and explode simultaneously and scatter our bits to the universe. How do you reconcile this?

I do not mean to bring up uncomfortable topics. However, my example will entail the closest thing I can think of in this mortal world that comes close to an ultimate evil. This would mean that when the Jews receive eternal reward, Hitler will also be present, just at a different level of separation from God.  Jehovah's Witness believe in annihilationism: the wicked face permanent destruction rather than eternal torture. Mormons believe in levels of separation from God: celestial, terrestrial, telestial kingdom, outer darkness, and a spirit prison which offers proxy baptisms. Each with their own version of eternal reward vs eternal damnation.

How does this coincide with Judaism? 

Thank you for your time and consideration.

Good to hear you are feeling better, no one wants to pass a kidney stone and all that goes with it. Hope you continue to heal.

Your first paragraph is correct in what you wrote. The purpose of the Satan in Judaism is to test one's devotion to the Almighty. No, it's not always comfortable and maybe even mostly uncomfortable but it is a test. Abraham was tested many times in the Hebrew bible.

Regarding the 2nd paragraph, you are correct, nature and mankind need balance. But we're not talking about G-d's creation, we're talking about G-d himself. G-d is always good and does what is best for us (whether we recognize it or not) which is ultimately part of His plan. Again, trying to understand G-d and what happens in our lives is not something we can totally grasp. 

3rd paragraph - You are not making us uncomfortable, you are asking real life questions that demand an answer. We may not always have the answer but we are not afraid to talk about it.

Judaism has many different thoughts, opinions and answers, I know that doesn't help you that much. Some may seem reasonable while other may seem far fetched. But if you study the reasons behind them, you might see things differently.

The basics are - The soul that G-d gave us goes back to Him and the body goes back to the ground where it was first formed.

[irmadlad]

RE: no one wants to pass a kidney stone and all that goes with it

Dude! It is brutal. I am forever amazed, every time it happens, that something so small can cause so much excruciating pain.

I was thinking a lot about Judaism while I lay in bed writhing in pain. I'm a huge computer geek and have been since the mid 70s, before most even saw a computer. It's like if you were a Windows OS user, and have been for years. You are very familiar with the desktop interface. You know where everything is, and what it does. However, one night, I snuck into your house, and replaced your Windows OS with Linux OS, something most people never encounter, though they rely on it minute by minute in this globally connected world. In the morning there will be much confusion on your part, and I assure, you will have a mountain of questions. It feels like that is where I am with Judaism. Learning a new operating system.

RE: The purpose of the Satan in Judaism is to test one's devotion to the Almighty.

I hear what you are saying, but I don't fully understand, because it involves two lines of thought.

First: This will hearken back to the Introduction sub-forum, where I asked about the structure of God's infallible foreknowledge. If God knows all, sees all, is all, does all, created all; seen and unseen, and all means all, then God already knows the outcome of such temptations. For instance, the book of Job. God already knew, from infinity, that Job would react as he did. God knew he would send Satan to test Job, and God already knew the outcome of such temptation. Not because Job was coerced to respond the way he did, but that the outcome was fixed, not determined, but fixed by the very structure of infallible foreknowledge. In Jeremiah, He even alludes to this very fact:

Jeremiah 1:5 - "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."

Incidentally, it does not seem to me that Jeremiah had a choice in the matter. If Jeremiah decided, "Nope, I'm not going to be a prophet," then God would be proven wrong. Again, this hearkens back to express, explicit, infinite, foreknowledge. The smallest amount of time that man has been able to measure is called a Planck, and is expressed as 10 to the negative 44 power of a second. Quite brief. God knows us even on a more granular level than that, therefore nothing we do is a surprise, including our reactions when he sends Satan to tempt us.

Second: For what purpose? You say to 'test one's devotion to the Almighty'. The closest thing I can think of, is from personal experience as a parent. My beloved wife gave me a beautiful, intelligent, daughter who has turned out the be the very epitome and definition of a blessing. In what I call '18 years of boot camp' my job was to give my daughter all the tools necessary for her to make wise decisions in life so that she may become a successful, productive member of society. This is how we grow as a society, we elevate the next generation. However, I didn't go around setting pitfalls and traps for her, in order to see what she would do. I set my daughter up to succeed because I love her, and that love is truly unconditional. I realize these analogies are flawed from the outset, because we are trying to contrast a God without limitations with mortal beings, but it's the best I have.

RE: Judaism has many different thoughts, opinions and answers,

I understand. As a huge science fan, science doesn't have all the answers. There are many theories, thought patterns, different views. When science doesn't know an answer tho, it just doesn't throw up it's hands and quit. Science just asks more questions because all wisdom and knowledge starts with a single question. It is innate in humans to seek knowledge.

RE: The basics are - The soul that G-d gave us goes back to Him and the body goes back to the ground where it was first formed.

Body stays in the ground, souls go back to God. Is there punishment for people such as Slobodan Milošević, those involved with the Khmer Rouge, Pol Pot, Rwanda’s 1994 genocide leaders, and even Hitler? Gosh, I sure hope so. What happens to these souls?

Thank you for your time searchinmyroots, and your patience with me. I'm trying to learn about a new operating system.

[searchinmyroots]

irmadlad,

Your questions are reasonable and quite normal as the answers are not always comforting or completely fulfilling.

You wrote - 

" If God knows all, sees all, is all, does all, created all; seen and unseen, and all means all, then God already knows the outcome of such temptation"

Yes, but as I mentioned and do keep repeating, we as humans do not understand what that means. How can we possibly understand what it is to be beyond time and space? If we think of it as humans, then yes, it doesn't make sense. As far as I know, G-d doesn't have a physical brain that thinks the way we do. He is the Creator and even though we think He "knows the outcome", we don't really understand what that means in G-d's terms. It's like trying to figure out what the 10th dimension is. Maybe it's like us looking back at the decisions we made. We now know the outcome but we had a choice when we made them.

Regarding your beautiful daughter, I'm happy she is a blessing to you. Parents must sometime let their children fail or else they really won't learn and grow. When a child learns to walk, they usually fall, a lot! Do we as parents hold them up all the time when they are learning, or do we sometimes let them fall and get back up? Isn't it a healthy relationship to let them learn some things on their own by making mistakes or stumbling? I have a son and know from my own experiences with my parents that sometimes we are told what is right but do what we want anyway. Sometimes we learn from it, sometimes we don't. And if we did something to hurt someone, we should apologize. So maybe you didn't set pitfalls and traps as you see it, but maybe you did allow mistakes so she could grow (maybe you didn't, I of course don't know!). 

Regarding punishment for those who are evil, that's not my call and I or I would go out on a limb to say most if not all, don't really know. But there is a thought in Judaism that says some souls are too damaged to return and they disappear (there is probably a better way of saying that, I just don't have the right words at this time). 

So as we know, there are many mysteries in life. Where did we come from, why are we here, how does everything work together in this world, where are we going. Different cultures and different religions will have different answers. If we have a strong belief with some sort of evidence than we tend to stick with that unless something really strong pulls us away in a different direction.

I was born in a secular Jewish family with almost no affiliation to Judaism. Just maybe some cultural activities but nothing really spiritual. That's mainly because I wasn't exposed to it in a spiritual way. It's a long story of how I got to the place of where I am now but I will say that the more I study, read and learn about Judaism, the more I see something supernatural, G-d in our lives. There are certain things written in the Hebrew bible and in certain ways that seem almost impossible to be written by man alone. And it was without the internet or AI, or other resources that we have today. Just a bunch of people in the desert that became a nation with a purpose of bringing G-d's instructions on how to live to the world. 

May our mission be complete.

[irmadlad]

RE: the answers are not always comforting or completely fulfilling.

I'm not looking for comfort. Because here's what I keep coming back to. If this is true, it's true whether it's comfortable or not. But if it's false, it's false whether we want it to be true or not.

RE: Yes, but as I mentioned and do keep repeating, we as humans do not understand what that means. How can we possibly understand what it is to be beyond time and space?

This is a common thread throughout all religions, so let's address it. (I can hear your Oy Vey! from here) It ties in nicely with the problem of evil. 

If I hear you correctly, you are saying that we are not in an epistemic position to judge whether God has sufficient reasons for permitting evil, or anything for that matter. Just as a toddler can't understand why a parent allows a painful vaccination, the child lacks the cognitive capacity to grasp the medical reasoning, humans lack the cognitive capacity to grasp God's reasons for allowing suffering. The gap between our understanding and God's understanding is infinitely wider than the gap between a toddler and a physician. Therefore, our inability to see a justification for evil doesn't mean none exists. We're simply too limited to see it. 

OK fine. You don't claim to solve the problem; you claim the problem is unsolvable, for us. I'll concede that this is a more humble approach than some.

However, if we're genuinely unable to determine whether God has sufficient reasons for permitting evil, then we're equally unable to determine whether God has sufficient reasons for permitting good. Maybe the good things in life serve no divine purpose either. Maybe God allows joy, love, and beauty for reasons we can't comprehend, or maybe they're accidents. This doesn't just insulate God's goodness from the problem of evil; it insulates everything about God from human evaluation. If we can't judge whether God has reasons for allowing a child to die of bone cancer, we also can't judge whether God has reasons for commanding us to love our neighbor, whether the Messiah will come, or whether eternal reward even exists. God isn't defended; He is made unknowable.

You say: "Trust God. He has reasons you can't see." OK fine. But trust requires the belief that the one you're trusting is good. And if we can't determine whether God's actions are good, because we're too limited to evaluate them, then we can't determine that God is trustworthy either. We’re sawing off the branch we’re sitting on. You can't ask me to trust that God is good while simultaneously telling me I'm incapable of evaluating whether His actions are good. Those claims can't both be true.

If we genuinely can't tell whether any given act of evil serves a greater purpose, then we can't condemn any evil. The unspeakable horrors of the Holocaust might be part of God's plan. A child's torture might serve a purpose we can't see. You must remain morally neutral about everything, because any horror might, for all we know, be a divine vaccination. This isn't just intellectually untenable; it's morally corrosive. A framework that requires me to withhold judgment on the torture of children because maybe God has a reason is a framework that has forfeited its right to be called moral.

The toddler-and-vaccination analogy assumes that the parent is acting for the child's good, and the only question is whether the child understands why. But in the case of God, the question is precisely whether He's acting for our good. We can't assume the conclusion and then use our ignorance as evidence for it. The toddler trusts the parent because the parent has demonstrated goodness: feeding, comforting, protecting. What's the equivalent evidence for God? A world full of bone cancer, wars, famine, and unspeakable horrors for even His own chosen people? 

As always, thank you for your time and patience.

[searchinmyroots]

irmadlad,

However, if we're genuinely unable to determine whether God has sufficient reasons for permitting evil, then we're equally unable to determine whether God has sufficient reasons for permitting good. Maybe the good things in life serve no divine purpose either. Maybe God allows joy, love, and beauty for reasons we can't comprehend, or maybe they're accidents. 

I don't think I said we're unable to determine if G-d has sufficient reasons for permitting evil. We KNOW that He does! 

I think the difference is G-d tells us what is good, in His own words. He also tells us what is evil, or should not be done. If G-d tells us either way, then it is sufficient! He tells us what He desires, which again shows it's up to our free will to act upon.

What's the equivalent evidence for God? A world full of bone cancer, wars, famine, and unspeakable horrors for even His own chosen people? 

The evidence for G-d is creation and the mastery of how everything works. I noticed you are sort of leaning on one side. Why haven't you also balanced the scale with all of the good in the world? Surely you can see that as well.

[irmadlad]

I apologize for not being here in the past few days. I haven't given up. You can't get rid of me that easy. LOL I've just had a few pressing matters to take care of.

RE:  G-d has sufficient reasons for permitting evil. We KNOW that He does! 

Yes, I know. He even said so: I create good, I create evil I do all these things for I am the Lord thy God.

I don't know about you, whether you are in a long term relationship or perhaps married. But I'll share something from my personal life. I've been married for 48 years now. I tell my wife, and I mean it with every fiber of my being and drop of blood in my body, "Honey, I love you unconditionally" Meaning, there is nothing she has to do to receive my love, and there is nothing she could possibly do to make it stop. And I've run the gamut of possibilities; there is nothing. After 48 years my love just is, and keeps growing stronger.

I don't beat my wife, because it's against the law. Penitentiaries are full of people who broke the law. Laws don't prevent; they just prosecute. I don't beat my wife because I may run afoul of morality. I don't beat my wife because I love her unconditionally. The basic principle is this: We do not cause intentional pain and harm to those we love. No further discussion is necessary. This is just on a human, imperfect level. How much more so for a Creator/God level. Yet we see page after page after page of violence committed by God against His own creation. In one instance He says, "I am an angry God." In another, "I am a jealous God." And in yet another instance, "You send forth Your burning anger, and it consumes them as chaff." 

  

What is God so angry and jealous at, regarding His very own creation? This is His own creation doing exactly as He knew from infinity they would do. You see, 48 years of marriage gives me something most theological debates lack: actual lived experience of what unconditional love looks like in practice. That alone grounds this assertion in reality rather than abstract speculation.

RE:  He tells us what He desires, which again shows it's up to our free will to act upon.

What I'm saying is that if God knows something with certainty from eternity, it cannot happen otherwise. Not because of coercion, but because of the logical structure of infallible knowledge. If something could turn out differently, then God's foreknowledge would be wrong, and an omniscient God cannot be wrong. Therefore, whatever God knows will happen, and must happen. The future is fixed. Not open, not flexible, not contingent on human choices. Fixed.

This distinction matters more than it might seem. There's a difference between saying the future is fixed - locked in place by the logical structure of infallible knowledge - and saying God determined it; actively willed and authored every outcome. The first is logical determinism. The second is theological determinism. I'm claiming both, and the bridge between them is this: God didn't just know what would happen. He chose to create a world He knew would unfold this way, when He could have created a different world, or no world at all. His creative act was a selection among possibilities, and He selected the one He knew would produce the Fall, 170 billion souls, evil and  torment for the vast majority of them. Foreknowledge makes the future unchangeable. The creative choice makes God responsible for the future He foreknew. He didn't just see the movie; He greenlit the production.

RE:  Why haven't you also balanced the scale with all of the good in the world? Surely you can see that as well.

I've had, and do have a good life even though I came up hard. Modest, spartan, yes, but a good one none the less. I've been blessed with a beloved wife who gave me a beautiful and intelligent daughter, who gave us grandsons that are absolutely impressive young men. I know I'm supposed to be biased towards my grandchildren, but these young men are truly impressive. 

I've been on this planet some 25,900 days. I've never seen one day pass that someone wasn't being murdered, bombed, tortured, dying of hunger, eat up with infectious diseases, born with severe illnesses like cancer or bone disease, born crippled beyond belief, just to name a few. If God truly loves us, as you say he does, then why does He allow such evil atrocities for his own creation? A creation He made with his own hands, in His own image, and breathed His own breath of life into, only to send them into a world rigged for failure from the since creation of Adam and Eve?

Now, I'm pretty sure you will cite Agape as the reason. Agape is unconditional (In this regard, I've lived unconditional love for 48 years), sacrificial, self-giving love. Perfect. Divine. The only two I can't claim is perfect or divine.  

Fine, I get the definition. However, if agape is truly unconditional, then why are there conditions attached to salvation? ("Believe or perish") Why is there violence in scripture? We don't beat our children when they fail. We don't flood the earth when they disobey. We don't command genocide when they worship other gods. And after 48 years, I haven't threatened to kill my wife if she does something I disapprove of. Shouldn't a Creator/God exceed our imperfect level of love? If God created humans to have a relationship with them, then this is an abusive relationship. Something I know well. 

As always, I truly appreciate your patience and time. 

[searchinmyroots]

 In one instance He says, "I am an angry God." In another, "I am a jealous God." And in yet another instance, "You send forth Your burning anger, and it consumes them as chaff."  

Loving your wife, children and others unconditionally is a good trait if done correctly. I know I may sound like a broken record, but a relationship with the Master Creator of the world is different in a way.Try to remember who we're talking bout here, the One who gave us life and everything that comes with it. We cannot fully understand the reasoning that is behind all that happens in this world and the universe itself. As much as that may be a hard pill to swallow, and may even sound like a cop out to some, it is what it is. Either we accept it and move on with our lives to see and do good, or we can get sucked up into another way of life that isn't really healthy. 

What is God so angry and jealous at, regarding His very own creation? This is His own creation doing exactly as He knew from infinity they would do.

If you've read the part of the bible that mentions that, what does it say as to why? I'm pretty sure the passages will speak for themselves. Broken record again - Don't try to understand G-d as past, present and future, it's beyond our realm of thought.


What I'm saying is that if God knows something with certainty from eternity, it cannot happen otherwise. Not because of coercion, but because of the logical structure of infallible knowledge. If something could turn out differently, then God's foreknowledge would be wrong, and an omniscient God cannot be wrong. Therefore, whatever God knows will happen, and must happen. The future is fixed. Not open, not flexible, not contingent on human choices. Fixed. 

Ditto - It's not fixed, it happened by our free will and He just knows that it did. What is fixed about it? Just like you now know you married your wife and had children. Trying to understand G-d and His spiritual world as whole isn't going to happen in our lifetime. Nothing wrong with discussing it or trying to find an answer, but it shouldn't consume us. 

I've been on this planet some 25,900 days. I've never seen one day pass that someone wasn't being murdered, bombed, tortured, dying of hunger, eat up with infectious diseases, born with severe illnesses like cancer or bone disease, born crippled beyond belief, just to name a few. If God truly loves us, as you say he does, then why does He allow such evil atrocities for his own creation? A creation He made with his own hands, in His own image, and breathed His own breath of life into, only to send them into a world rigged for failure from the since creation of Adam and Eve?

And I haven't seen one day pass where miraculous things have happened. People who have been pulled from earthquake rubble 8 days later alive. People who had incurable diseases that are still alive decades later. Therapies and devices that help those who were crippled walk, people who were almost blind see, people in a coma for years only to awake. As I mentioned over and over again, I cannot answer why atrocities occur just as much as I cannot answer as to why miraculous things happen. I just have to live with it and do what G-d requires of me. To do my part to help prevent or cure others in whatever capacity that may be.

However, if agape is truly unconditional, then why are there conditions attached to salvation? ("Believe or perish") 

This is not part of Judaism.

Shouldn't a Creator/God exceed our imperfect level of love? If God created humans to have a relationship with them, then this is an abusive relationship.

How do you know He isn't? There are many instructions we don't follow to a tee, are we all dead because we haven't? That seems like a level up to me. I don't think the relationship is abusive, but you are free to think what you will. I think and Judaism believes there are 2 parts to the equation, love and justice. You cannot have one without the other.

[searchinmyroots]

I guess the bottom line is this as we can go back and forth for weeks, months and even years with this.

Do I understand and have the answers you are looking for?

No

Do I think there is a lot of cruelty in the world and unexplained things such as why an innocent young baby should die for no reason of his own or other calamities?

Yes

So where does that leave me?

i can either be bitter and dwell on these things or except what I can and live my best life. I'm not numb and do have feelings and emotions, but I also want to enjoy life, people and all creation that G-d has given to me.

And I think that holds true for us all, it's our freewill choice.