General Discussion The Messiah and Isaiah 53

[Peergint]

Thank you for starting a new thread and thank you for your questions.

My replies are as follows -

There is absolutely nothing that is "forbidden" about Isaiah 53, that is why you an pick up any Hebrew bible and find it there. If it was forbidden, I would have to guess it would have been removed so no one can see it.

As far as your quote from a historian goes, I would ask you if you understand what a Haftorah is and why/when it is used?

But how about instead of quoting historians, if we take a look at what the Hebrew bible says?

Just to let you know, there are no chapter breaks in the original scrolls, that is something that was added later by Christians. So Isaiah 53 is just a continuation of 52 and leads right into chapter 54.

Here is something I wrote on another website that might help you see why Chapter 53 is not about Jesus -

Christianity teaches Jesus died for your sins and by his blood you are justified. Well, let’s read Isaiah 53 again and see what it says. It says the servant was wounded from the sins of others (according to the Hebrew), not that he died for the sins of others. I’m sure you would agree being wounded is not the same as being dead. It says we will be justified by the servant’s knowledge. Nothing about being justified by blood.


So that means Christians would have to say something like, “Did you hear the good news? Jesus was wounded from your sins and by his knowledge you are justified!” , if they believe this chapter is speaking of Jesus.


Now let’s look at some other details.

Does the Hebrew Bible say that Israel is despised, forsaken, wounded and afflicted? YES! (As it says in other prophecies as well)

Does the Hebrew Bible call Israel “him” in the singular? YES! (As it does in other parts of the Bible)

Does the Hebrew Bible say that Israel is like a lamb that is led to the slaughter? YES! (As it does in other parts of the Bible)

Does the Hebrew Bible say the servant mentioned in Isaiah 53 is guilty of sin? YES! The Hebrew word used for sin in verse 10 refers either to the guilt offering or the guilt/wrong itself! (And if offerings are brought up, according to the rules of sacrifice, you can’t give an offering for someone else, and a human is not a valid offering for a guilty offering, so Jesus offering himself for others is utterly ruled out, whilst the servant recognizing his own guilt is more in line with the law of God)


Does the Hebrew Bible call the servant “them”? YES! It is used in the plural! (Both in Isaiah 53:8 and Isaiah 43:10)

Does the Hebrew Bible use the word “deaths?” Yes! It is used in the plural!

So please tell me again how this chapter refers to Jesus?

Christians believe that Jesus, being fully God and fully Man, died FOR OUR sins, that is the sins of the world in totality. 
According to this website which shows the Hebrew translation (https://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInte.../isa53.pdf) it says: 
"and he being wounded from transgression of us, being crushed from depravities of us." 
Doesn't this actually mean: "But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities"?
Again, I am only reading and learning.

To continue...

I have a problem with your statement that the Hebrew Bible calls the "servant" - singular spelling "them". Surely that doesn't make sense?
I looked up Isaiah 53:8 in the complete Jewish Bible and found the following:

After forcible arrest and sentencing,

he was taken away;
and none of his generation protested
his being cut off from the land of the living
for the crimes of my people,
who deserved the punishment themselves.
This Bible also mentions "he", singular. Could you please show me the Hebrew Bible translation as there is no mention of "them" here. Admitted this is not the Hebrew Bible.

This again from the Complete Jewish Bible:
Isaiah 43:10
“You are my witnesses,” says Adonai,

“and my servant whom I have chosen,
so that you can know and trust me
and understand that I am he —
no god was produced before me,
nor will any be after me.

I'm sorry but I cannot see any plurals here.

As a Christian, I believe that Jesus came to serve in His first coming. It's when He comes a second time that He will reign.

Can I ask about Daniel 9. Is it true that this is not read because a Rabbi said there was a curse on all who read it?