Who buried with whom? Isaiah 53:9

[ThomasDGW]

How about this Thomas.

Tell us why you think Isaiah 53 is referring to Jesus.

Not what the NT says, what you think.

Not what the NT says? What do you mean by that?

There are passages in the NT that quote directly from Isaiah 53 and state that this is referring to Jesus. Do you mean not to support my argument with those? I have NOT been using those to support my view in my posts here, because I know that you do not accept the NT as authoritative.

On the other hand, the details that I have learned about Jesus come from the NT. Do you mean that I am to forget everything the NT says, and think from a position of amnesia? Then I would have no idea of what Jesus specifically did.

The reason why I think Isaiah 53 is referring to Jesus is that everything in that passage, starting with 52:13, matches exactly with what I learned about Jesus in the NT. The reason that I don't think it refers to the nation Israel is that the specifics don't really fit, in fact, I see that explanations of how certain aspects are supposed to fit Israel contradict what other Jewish scholars say the text of Isaiah says.  So, I imagine that, if I knew nothing of the NT, I would still understand Isaiah 53 to be referring to a notable individual, perhaps the Messiah King to come, instead of the nation Israel. But that is my speculation.

But that is not why I am here posting. I am here posting because counter-missionaries are disturbed that some Jews have read Isaiah 53 and concluded that it is talking about Jesus. I have heard of several cases where an unlearned Jew has read or heard someone read Isaiah 53 without comment and got offended because they believed they were hearing the NT. "I told you not to read me the Christian Bible!" So, the counter-missionaries have gone through the several statements of the passage, ONE AT A TIME, and presented arguments why these statements cannot refer to Jesus. Apparently, this has caused some of these people to doubt their impressions and recant their belief in Jesus.

I, some 40 years ago, started a process of reevaluating what I had been taught about Jesus and the NT. I saw that I had been trained to explain away "problem verses", and I discovered that if I just took the NT at literal meaning (agreed upon by a wide consensus of scholars), my doctrines changed to the point that the "problem verses" disappeared. When I finally vas exposed to the counter-missionaries' objections, my eyes popped open and I said to myself, "But many of those claimed contradictions between the NT and the Hebrew Bible are exactly what I learned that the NT doesn't say." Furthermore, the counter-missionaries' objections that I had not seen before sent me back to search, and I found that those were areas where I still had not gotten straightened out, yet. This one about Jesus getting buried with the wicked is one of those.

DON'T MISS THIS! The counter-missionaries, in teaching the Hebrew Bible to get misguided converts away from Christianity, many times are teaching what I discovered years ago the NT really says!

So, I am trying to make my little pip-squeak voice heard, because I see something that you are all missing, including Christians. You are all arguing from false premises, and they are easy to see, if you just open your eyes.

I already pointed out the fact that God says that this servant of Isaiah 53 is a sin-bearer, and the orthodox rabbi admitted that Israel is not a sin-bearer in the sense of Isaiah 53:12, but made the claim that this is just the impression of the kings. What? God is speaking the impression of heathen kings? [NO ANSWER]

Before that, I pointed out that Jesus is stated in the NT to have been made sin, so there is no contradiction between the NT Jesus and Isaiah 53:10 saying that the servant offers a sacrifice for his own guilt. [NO ANSWER] Notice that the Christians on this forum didn't answer, either.

In this thread, I showed that according to the NT, Jesus was not taken off the cross by Joseph and so must have been actually buried with the wicked, so there is no contradiction between the NT Jesus and Isaiah 53:9. In fact, an individual who is stated in an old text to have been buried twice is an astounding match with Isaiah 53:9, not proof in itself as one witness, but very compelling support for identifying the servant with this man, Jesus. The only answer was that I must be wrong because so many other people didn't see this.

Those are 3 specific reasons why I believe that the servant of Isaiah 53 is the real NT Jesus, not the Jesus of Christianity.  If you want me to respond to a 4th issue, maybe you would like to open a thread on you favorite issue. But when I show you my answer, please give a solid response.