Isaiah 53 Verse 10

[ThomasDGW]

So, based on your understanding of the passage, if this pertains to Israel as you say, when did this happen, and what spoils did Israel divide with the strong?

On the other hand, it seems to me that the passages is saying that dividing the spoils with the strong is to come AFTER this servant poured out his soul unto death. Thus, there is no reason to expect that dividing the spoils has to have already happened. It seems to me that the Messiah will divide the spoils at the seventh trumpet, when he receives the kingdoms of this world, according to Revelation 11:15.

I don't recall saying this passage pertains to Israel, I was referring to what some people think it means regarding a messiah.

Revelation is not part of the Hebrew bible so it is irrelevant.

I did not intend to put words into your mouth. The view that Isaiah 53 speaks of Israel has been represented on this forum as being the Jewish view, and I was unaware that you do not hold to that Jewish view. My question should be directed to those who hold that view.

I was answering your question directed to a person who believes that Isaiah 53 refers to Jesus the Messiah. I think that you are reading into my comments an intention to prove that Jesus is the Messiah. If that were my intention, then I should be looking for statements or facts that you accept as authoritative. But that is not my intention. My intention is to show that the statements and facts about Jesus that I regard as authoritative fit harmoniously with the Hebrew prophecies.

The counter-missionary approach seems to be to go through Hebrew scriptures and show that beliefs and doctrines about Jesus in the NT or in the Christian church clash with Hebrew scriptures. I am simply responding that they don't, that there is coherency. Most Christian missionaries seem to take the approach that the claimed fulfillment of 300 Hebrew prophecies by Jesus in the NT constitute 300 individual proofs that Jesus has to be the Messiah. I see it completely differently.

Take Hosea 11:1, about God calling his son out of Egypt when Israel was a child. To me this is giving a precedent, that if someone is God's son, then God will call him out of Egypt (spiritually or physically). It does not say that everyone that God calls out of Egypt is God's son or is the Messiah. So, it is WRONG for the missionaries to say that since Jesus was called out of Egypt, that this fulfills Hosea 11:1 as a Messianic proof. Instead, the narrative that Jesus was called out of Egypt fulfills a prophetic REQUIREMENT for Jesus to be God's son.

So, Isaiah 53:9 speaks of this servant, whoever he is, as making his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death. The NT does not state that Jesus was buried first in the criminal pit, but on the other hand it DOES allow it. That does not prove that Jesus is the servant; it means that he is NOT disqualified by the prophetic statement. Isaiah 53:12 speaks of the servant dividing the spoil. Jesus is described in Revelation as receiving the spoil of this world, in the context of the battle of Armageddon.  That does not prove that Jesus is the servant; it means that he is NOT disqualified by the prophetic statement. On the other hand, I think that Israel IS disqualified by the spoil clause from being the servant.

I am calling for both missionaries AND counter-missionaries to be honest. So far, no one is listening to my pleas.