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Judaism: The most powerful reason on why I reject Jesus as messiah
#21
[quote pid='2044' dateline='1567036353']


Hosea 12:4-5 tells us who Jacob wrestled with -

(JPT)

4 - In the womb, he seized his brother's heel, and with his strength he strove with an angel.

5 - He strove with an angel and prevailed; he wept and beseeched him; In Bethel he shall find Him, and there He shall speak with us.


Where does it say Jacob saw the face of G-d and lived?

It specifically says that no one can see the face of G-d and live.

Exodus 33:20 - And He said, "You will not be able to see My face, for man shall not see Me and live."

So who should I believe, the Torah or you?
[/quote]

Where does it say Jacob saw the face of G-d and lived? you can see it here "And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: 'for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.'Genesis 32:31 or here  "And he said: 'Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel; for thou hast striven with God and with men, and hast prevailed."  Genesis 32:29


So who should I believe, the Torah or you?
Genesis 32:31 say that Jacob saw GOD face to face(not an angel)and his life was preserved.It also say that Jacob "hast striven with God"
Reply
#22
(08-29-2019, 02:53 AM)serviteur wrote: [quote pid='2044' dateline='1567036353']


Hosea 12:4-5 tells us who Jacob wrestled with -

(JPT)

4 - In the womb, he seized his brother's heel, and with his strength he strove with an angel.

5 - He strove with an angel and prevailed; he wept and beseeched him; In Bethel he shall find Him, and there He shall speak with us.


Where does it say Jacob saw the face of G-d and lived?

It specifically says that no one can see the face of G-d and live.

Exodus 33:20 - And He said, "You will not be able to see My face, for man shall not see Me and live."

So who should I believe, the Torah or you?

Where does it say Jacob saw the face of G-d and lived? you can see it here "And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: 'for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.'Genesis 32:31 or here  "And he said: 'Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel; for thou hast striven with God and with men, and hast prevailed."  Genesis 32:29


So who should I believe, the Torah or you?
Genesis 32:31 say that Jacob saw GOD face to face(not an angel)and his life was preserved.It also say that Jacob "hast striven with God"
[/quote]


Hmm, that's not what my bible says.

It says -

And Jacob named the place Peniel, for [he said,] "I saw an angel face to face, and my soul was saved."

Here is the link - https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/8227

So let me ask you, do you speak Hebrew?

If not, how do you know what the Hebrew bible really says?

I hope you aren't relying on interpretations of interpretations.
Reply
#23
[quote pid='2054' dateline='1567048677']


Hmm, that's not what my bible says.

It says -

And Jacob named the place Peniel, for [he said,] "I saw an angel face to face, and my soul was saved."

Here is the link - https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/8227

So let me ask you, do you speak Hebrew?

If not, how do you know what the Hebrew bible really says?

I hope you aren't relying on interpretations of interpretations.
[/quote]

I read those verses on www.mechon-mamre.org ,it is in Hebrew with English translation.But yes,i do not speak Hebrew.
God said that He will punish those who are uncircumcised in the heart in Jeremiah 9:26 ,that is a little of topic but if i was a jew,i would like to be circumcised in the heart so i may live(Deuteronomy 30:6).Eternal death is too scary,at least for me.
Thanks for not censoring me.I pray that the GOD of Abraham,Isaac and Jacob open your eyes to the true Messiah but it is also necessary to pray for answers.Here is some verses that show that GOD can answer people.
"I did not speak in secret, in a land of darkness; I did not say to the offspring of Jacob, ‘Seek me in vain.’ I the LORD speak the truth; I declare what is right."Isaiah  45:19
"If they had stood before me and listened to me, they would have spoken my words, and they would have turned my people from their evil ways and deeds."Jeremiah 23:22
Seek HIM and find him,stand  before HIM and He will tell you who the messiah is and maybe, you can be his servant in the likes of Jeremiah Smile by spreading the good news. 
Goodnight
Reply
#24
(08-29-2019, 06:59 AM)serviteur wrote: [quote pid='2054' dateline='1567048677']
I pray that the GOD of Abraham,Isaac and Jacob open your eyes to the true Messiah but it is also necessary to pray for answers.Here is some verses that show that GOD can answer people.
"I did not speak in secret, in a land of darkness; I did not say to the offspring of Jacob, ‘Seek me in vain.’ I the LORD speak the truth; I declare what is right."Isaiah  45:19
"If they had stood before me and listened to me, they would have spoken my words, and they would have turned my people from their evil ways and deeds."Jeremiah 23:22
Seek HIM and find him,stand  before HIM and He will tell you who the messiah is and maybe, you can be his servant in the likes of Jeremiah Smile by spreading the good news. 
Goodnight
[/quote]

On another thread I've advised you about the rules of the forum. I'm guessing you've not read it yet. I suggest you read it now. You are in violation of the rules.

If you persist in your attempts to proselytize you will not be here very long.
בקש שלום ורדפהו
Reply
#25
(08-29-2019, 06:59 AM)serviteur wrote: I read those verses on www.mechon-mamre.org ,it is in Hebrew with English translation.But yes,i do not speak Hebrew.
The 1917 Jewish Publication Society translation, used by Mechon-Mamre because it is in the public domain, does say "G-d". The newer JPS translation uses the term "divine being."

The phrase in the Torah is -
כי ראיתי אלהים פנים אל פנים
For I have seen elohim face to face.

The question is, how to translate elohim. Elohim can mean "G-d". It can mean "gods" as when it refers to the deities of other religion. It can mean judges and it can mean angels.

Further, Torah uses metaphors and idiomatic phrases. If you and I were to agree on something and I said, "We see eye to eye on that." would it be appropriate for someone to think that we put our eyeballs up against each other?

I could say more, but I'm not sure you're going to be here long enough for me to make the effort.
בקש שלום ורדפהו
Reply
#26
(08-29-2019, 06:59 AM)serviteur wrote: I read those verses on www.mechon-mamre.org ,it is in Hebrew with English translation.But yes,i do not speak Hebrew.God said that He will punish those who are uncircumcised in the heart in Jeremiah 9:26 ,that is a little of topic but if i was a jew,i would like to be circumcised in the heart so i may live(Deuteronomy 30:6).Eternal death is too scary,at least for me.

Thanks for not censoring me.I pray that the GOD of Abraham,Isaac and Jacob open your eyes to the true Messiah but it is also necessary to pray for answers.Here is some verses that show that GOD can answer people.
"I did not speak in secret, in a land of darkness; I did not say to the offspring of Jacob, ‘Seek me in vain.’ I the LORD speak the truth; I declare what is right."Isaiah  45:19
"If they had stood before me and listened to me, they would have spoken my words, and they would have turned my people from their evil ways and deeds."Jeremiah 23:22
Seek HIM and find him,stand  before HIM and He will tell you who the messiah is and maybe, you can be his servant in the likes of Jeremiah Smile by spreading the good news. 
Goodnight

As RabbiO mentioned you are breaking the forum rules.

We know all about Jesus and the alleged proof texts, we heard them all before and have responded and debunked them.

If your only mission here is to preach to us, then you'll have to find somewhere else to spread your good news.

If you want to ask questions ans learn about what the Hebrew bible really says, then you are welcome to stay.

It's your decision.

Thanks.
Reply
#27
[quote pid='2054' dateline='1567048677']


Hmm, that's not what my bible says.

It says -

And Jacob named the place Peniel, for [he said,] "I saw an angel face to face, and my soul was saved."

[/quote]

And Jacob named the place Peniel, for [he said,] "I saw an angel face to face, and my soul was saved?
I thought only GOD has that kind of power(And He added, “You cannot see My face, for no one can see Me and live.”)Exodus 33:20.Can a person die just looking at the face of an angel?How about the people of sodom,they saw two angels but didn't die on the spot,what is an other case where people survived after looking at  an angel.Or maybe Jacob soul was saved by looking at an angel,can an angel offer salvation?what does the bible in hebrew says about it?
Thanks in advance.
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#28
What do you mean by "salvation"?
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#29
(09-08-2019, 01:45 AM)searchinmyroots wrote: What do you mean by "salvation"
"my soul was saved",salvation aka being given the right to enter into heaven.What does soul saved means?Can you die just by looking at an angel?How come the people of sodom didn't die on the spot by looking at the two angels.I know that you can die by looking at GOD(Exodus 33:20) but i don't know where in the bible,it does say that an angel has that kind of power.Why would a creation(angel) have the power of killing a person made in the image of GOD anyway,just by looking at him/her?
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#30
I'm sorry, but you seem to be mixing things together where they do not belong.

Let's take another look -

Genesis 32:31 - And Jacob named the place Peniel, for [he said,] "I saw an angel face to face, and my soul was saved."

No reference to "a right to enter heaven" here.

What kind of "power"? Jacob wrestled with an angel and after the wrestle was glad he survived. It doesn't say anything about "looking at an angel and dying" you made that up.

I guess you don't believe in the whole bible as again, Hosea specifically states Jacob wrestled with an angel, so why should we not believe him?
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