The Relationship Between Judaism and Christianity

[Channalee]

At the risk of taking this further off-topic, I'm going to seize this opportunity to ask you about something, Jude, that has had me puzzled.  (Because I like the way you explain the Catholic view of things):
 
I was surprised when I was present at a conversation between a Protestant and a Catholic who were arguing about whether Jesus had biological brothers and sisters.  I had no idea at the time that Protestants and Catholics differed on this issue:  That Catholics said that Jesus' mother Mary never had any other children by her husband Joseph, but that Protestants said she had and that Jesus' siblings were mentioned in the gospels.  The Catholic was actually offended by the Protestant even suggesting that Mary might have had any sexual relations with Joseph.  
 
Was this an atypical argument that I just stumbled across and witnessed, or is there really a serious disagreement between Protestants and Catholics about whether Jesus had any biological siblings?

[Jude86]

At the risk of taking this further off-topic, I'm going to seize this opportunity to ask you about something, Jude, that has had me puzzled.  (Because I like the way you explain the Catholic view of things):
 
I was surprised when I was present at a conversation between a Protestant and a Catholic who were arguing about whether Jesus had biological brothers and sisters.  I had no idea at the time that Protestants and Catholics differed on this issue:  That Catholics said that Jesus' mother Mary never had any other children by her husband Joseph, but that Protestants said she had and that Jesus' siblings were mentioned in the gospels.  The Catholic was actually offended by the Protestant even suggesting that Mary might have had any sexual relations with Joseph.  
 
Was this an atypical argument that I just stumbled across and witnessed, or is there really a serious disagreement between Protestants and Catholics about whether Jesus had any biological siblings?

Was this argument atypical? Unfortunately not. The Catholic doctrine of the virgin birth of Christ was extended and interpreted to insist upon Mary's perpetual virginity. This in SPITE of the fact that the Gospels CLEARLY mention the brothers of Jesus. Subsequently, the official Catholic interpretation of the mention of Jesus' brothers is that they were really his cousins, but that's such a stupid idea to me. As my priest once said during Mass, "They say that they're cousins but Hebrew and Greek have words for 'cousin.'"

In other words, I would never euphemistically refer to my cousin as "my brother," so it's really kinda ridiculous to me that Catholics argue this. Nevertheless, it is official teaching that Mary was a perpetual virgin.

To put a finer point on this, James is a figure who is specifically mentioned as Jesus' brother and was the leader of the Jewish Christians in Jerusalem. We KNOW that Jesus has brothers, it's just that Catholicism sometimes adds a lot of bells and whistles to fix a lot of things that don't need to be fixed. It goes against Christian scripture in my mind: The Gospel of Matthew chapter 1 verse 25 reads that Joseph "knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son."

So I mean . . . it's clear that Mary and Joseph had marital relations. We Catholics . . . can get bent out of shape over stupid stuff that's really should be kinda easy to see and is obvious to everyone BUT us.

As to whether this applies to all Catholics? It's going to depend on the Catholic you ask. Like, I know Catholics (and I'm one of them) who don't believe in the Virgin Birth as a literal phenomenon but understand this as a metaphorical statement on the nature of Jesus. Lots of the more liberal Catholics would be more open to discussing and debating the Virginity of Mary while some of the more conservative Catholics will fight over this stuff.

Church politics! Like regular politics but now with religion mixed in; and everyone knows that that always goes well . . . .
Church politics! A combination designed to make your mouth water in that way it does right before you get sick.

[Channalee]

Thanks for clearing that up!  I do know some Catholics, but I never asked them about this because, after seeing how those two people I mentioned were going at each other over the subject, I didn't want to stir up anything.  You seem to be pretty comfortable discussing stuff like this.  You're a cool dude, Jude. 

[Baruch]

I know Catholics (and I'm one of them) who don't believe in the Virgin Birth as a literal phenomenon but understand this as a metaphorical statement on the nature of Jesus.

Your honestly is certainly appreciated. I hope you will stay on with the forum. Many Jews ( myself included ) believe the Hebrew bible was meant to be part literal, and part metaphorical passage of information. I know some people in the bible did exist. I think both King Solomon and King David were real people. Abraham and Moses I lean towards metaphorical. Both the Hebrew bible and Talmud have been so dissected by modern Judaism that it is easy to understand the authors intent of the writings.

We are to recognize everyone as brothers and sisters, and do everything we can do to promote that bond.

[Jude86]

Thanks for clearing that up!  I do know some Catholics, but I never asked them about this because, after seeing how those two people I mentioned were going at each other over the subject, I didn't want to stir up anything.  You seem to be pretty comfortable discussing stuff like this.  You're a cool dude, Jude. 

Yeah, no, I know that bringing up religion with people can be a difficult subject to broach. I can absolutely answer Catholic questions. Maybe I should make a separate thread for it in case there are other things you want to know about. As for being a cool dude? I try!

Your honestly is certainly appreciated. I hope you will stay on with the forum. Many Jews ( myself included ) believe the Hebrew bible was meant to be part literal, and part metaphorical passage of information. I know some people in the bible did exist. I think both King Solomon and King David were real people. Abraham and Moses I lean towards metaphorical. Both the Hebrew bible and Talmud have been so dissected by modern Judaism that it is easy to understand the authors intent of the writings.

We are to recognize everyone as brothers and sisters, and do everything we can do to promote that bond.

Thank you very much for the welcome! And yeah, I'll be around!

[nili]

... Subsequently, the official Catholic interpretation of the mention of Jesus' brothers is that they were really his cousins, but that's such a stupid idea to me. As my priest once said during Mass, "They say that they're cousins but Hebrew and Greek have words for 'cousin.'"

Perhaps you could ask your priest to tell you the Hebrew (or Aramaic) word for 'cousin'? I'm aware of nothing other than than, e.g., daughter-of-aunt (בת דודה).

On the other hand, were one to look up the Hebrew word אח in The Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon one would find:

1. brother, born of the same mother (& father)
   
2. indef.= relative
   
3. ...
   

Wikipedia reflects the above when it notes: "The literal translation of the words "brother" and "sister" is an objective problem because there are few quotations and because the words have various meanings in the family of Semitic languages."

[Jude86]

Perhaps you could ask your priest to tell you the Hebrew (or Aramaic) word for 'cousin'? I'm aware of nothing other than than, e.g., daughter-of-aunt (בת דודה).

On the other hand, were one to look up the Hebrew word אח in The Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon one would find:

1. brother, born of the same mother (& father)
   
2. indef.= relative
   
3. ...
   

Wikipedia reflects the above when it notes: "The literal translation of the words "brother" and "sister" is an objective problem because there are few quotations and because the words have various meanings in the family of Semitic languages."

Well, that priest actually isn't around anymore so I can't. BUT! I did remember him using the term that sounded something like "bendy" or something like that when he was distinguishing the word cousin in Hebrew. Mind you, this was a sermon he delivered some eight or nine years ago and I found it impressive enough to remember it.

In order to give you the word that's used, I would have to take a look at the Gospels in Hebrew. The oldest Gospels that we have, though, to the best of my knowledge, are in Greek. I don't know what scholarship my priest had done but it seems that, in his comment on the Hebrew, his perspective might have been anachronistic (or I also might have misquoted him). The Greek, on the other hand, he may have been right about. I'd have to take a look at it, but I think that Greek has a stricter sense of these words.

[Jason]

Just out of curiosity... what does Paul confirm about a historical Jesus? Similarly, what does Josephus confirm about a historical Jesus? Luke copied from Mark (and perhaps from Matthew). I don't imagine his record to be any more valuable than the other gospels.

[nili]

Just out of curiosity... what does Paul confirm about a historical Jesus? Similarly, what does Josephus confirm about a historical Jesus? Luke copied from Mark (and perhaps from Matthew). I don't imagine his record to be any more valuable than the other gospels.

@Jason, if this was directed to me let me suggest that it probably warrants a thread of its own.

[Baruch]

Sorry for the interruption in this thread. Feel free to continue.