Question on 'im' ending in Gen 6:16

[zoe_lithoi@yahoo.com]

Greetings,


[Gen 6:16 KJV] 16 A window shalt thou make to the ark, and in a cubit shalt thou finish it above; and the door of the ark shalt thou set in the side thereof; [with] lower, second, and third [stories] shalt thou make it.

lower, second, and third [stories] 
lower, second, and third [stories] 

"Stories" is in parenthesis because there is not a single Hebrew word corresponding to it, rather, it is adduced from the word ending of one of the Hebrew words. Let's look at the Hebrew word endings corresponding to lower, second, and third.  Each of these 3 words end in the plural form, ie. 'im'. In hebrew font it is:

תַּחְתִּיִּם שְׁנִיִּם וּשְׁלִשִׁים

The Hebrew in English font is:

TChtim ShNim NShLShim

Notice all three words end in 'im'. 

I am not sure, but iIt seems to be saying
lowers, seconds, and thirds.

Am I correct?

Either way, I would appreciate any discussion on this.

Thanks in advance..

Also, there is a similar verse for consideration:

Eze 42:3 Over against the twenty [cubits] which [were] for the inner court, and over against the pavement which [was] for the utter court, [was] gallery against gallery in three [stories]. 

three [stories]. 
three [stories]. 
three [stories]. 

Toby

[Jason]

It's a courtesy to the readership to quote the verse in Hebrew when you're asking about it. In this case, and with your question in red, Genesis 6:16 is:

צֹ֣הַר ׀ תַּֽעֲשֶׂ֣ה לַתֵּבָ֗ה וְאֶל־אַמָּה֙ תְּכַלֶּ֣נָּה מִלְמַ֔עְלָה וּפֶ֥תַח הַתֵּבָ֖ה בְּצִדָּ֣הּ תָּשִׂ֑ים
תַּחְתִּיִּ֛ם שְׁנִיִּ֥ם וּשְׁלִשִׁ֖ים תַּֽעֲשֶֽׂהָ׃

As far as transliteration is concerned, I would render this is academic transcription as taḥtiyyim shniyyim ûšĕlīšîm. The third word does not have an n (that is, נ) in it at all, as you have in your transliteration.

The first word in question is, in the lexical form, תַּחְתִּי taḥtî, which means "the lowest part." In Holladay's A Concise Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament (CHALOT), the author says specifically with regard to Genesis 6:16 that it means "lowest storey" (in a house/building). Here is the entry for this word:

תַּחְתִּי: f. תַּחַתִּית, תַּחְתִּיָּה; pl. תַּחְתִּיּוֹת: the lower, lowest: storey Gn 6:16, millstone Jb 41:16; taḥtiyyôt hāʾāreṣ the depths of the earth Is 44:23, = ereṣ taḥtît Ez 31:14 & ereṣ taḥtiyyôt 26:20; taḥtiyyôt lᵉ lowest parts of Ne 4:7.

I'd take the words to indicate that there were to be three floors. I'm not aware that there was a specific biblical word for "floor" or "storey." We use the word קוֹמָה qômâ in modern Hebrew as spoken in Israel. Biblically, this word meant "height," for which we use גּ֫וֹבַהּ gốḇah (also a biblical word) exclusively today. Thus, while both of these terms meant "height" in the Bible, in modern Hebrew the former became "floor" (of a building) and the latter became "height" exclusively, whether of a building or of a person or of anything else.

It seems to me that the tachtiyim are the "lower parts" of the ark, while the shniyim are the second floor up ("secondary places") and the shlishim are the third floor up ("third places"). The words shniyim and shlishim simply mean "second" and "third," respectively, and they should be taken in contrast to tachtiyim, which surely refers to the lowest floor. The plural is inconsequential. It is plural because it is the parts that are lower of the ship.

[zoe_lithoi@yahoo.com]

It's a courtesy to the readership to quote the verse in Hebrew when you're asking about it. In this case, and with your question in red, Genesis 6:16 is:

צֹ֣הַר ׀ תַּֽעֲשֶׂ֣ה לַתֵּבָ֗ה וְאֶל־אַמָּה֙ תְּכַלֶּ֣נָּה מִלְמַ֔עְלָה וּפֶ֥תַח הַתֵּבָ֖ה בְּצִדָּ֣הּ תָּשִׂ֑ים
תַּחְתִּיִּ֛ם שְׁנִיִּ֥ם וּשְׁלִשִׁ֖ים תַּֽעֲשֶֽׂהָ׃

As far as transliteration is concerned, I would render this is academic transcription as taḥtiyyim shniyyim ûšĕlīšîm. The third word does not have an n (that is, נ) in it at all, as you have in your transliteration.

The first word in question is, in the lexical form, תַּחְתִּי taḥtî, which means "the lowest part." In Holladay's A Concise Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament (CHALOT), the author says specifically with regard to Genesis 6:16 that it means "lowest storey" (in a house/building). Here is the entry for this word:

תַּחְתִּי: f. תַּחַתִּית, תַּחְתִּיָּה; pl. תַּחְתִּיּוֹת: the lower, lowest: storey Gn 6:16, millstone Jb 41:16; taḥtiyyôt hāʾāreṣ the depths of the earth Is 44:23, = ereṣ taḥtît Ez 31:14 & ereṣ taḥtiyyôt 26:20; taḥtiyyôt lᵉ lowest parts of Ne 4:7.

I'd take the words to indicate that there were to be three floors. I'm not aware that there was a specific biblical word for "floor" or "storey." We use the word קוֹמָה qômâ in modern Hebrew as spoken in Israel. Biblically, this word meant "height," for which we use גּ֫וֹבַהּ gốḇah (also a biblical word) exclusively today. Thus, while both of these terms meant "height" in the Bible, in modern Hebrew the former became "floor" (of a building) and the latter became "height" exclusively, whether of a building or of a person or of anything else.

It seems to me that the tachtiyim are the "lower parts" of the ark, while the shniyim are the second floor up ("secondary places") and the shlishim are the third floor up ("third places"). The words shniyim and shlishim simply mean "second" and "third," respectively, and they should be taken in contrast to tachtiyim, which surely refers to the lowest floor. The plural is inconsequential. It is plural because it is the parts that are lower of the ship.

Thank you Jason!

[nili]

The first word in question is, in the lexical form, תַּחְתִּי taḥtî, which means "the lowest part." In Holladay's A Concise Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament (CHALOT), the author says specifically with regard to Genesis 6:16 that it means "lowest storey" (in a house/building). ...

Please permit me a quick side question: How would you compare CHALOT with Brown-Driver-Briggs?

[Jason]

The first word in question is, in the lexical form, תַּחְתִּי taḥtî, which means "the lowest part." In Holladay's A Concise Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament (CHALOT), the author says specifically with regard to Genesis 6:16 that it means "lowest storey" (in a house/building). ...

Please permit me a quick side question: How would you compare CHALOT with Brown-Driver-Briggs?

(1) CHALOT is easier to search because it lists words by form rather than theoretical root.
(2) CHALOT is easier to carry around, but it's also more compact (giving glosses rather than explanations).
(3) CHALOT is more up-to-date than BDB.

When I started biblical Hebrew, we used exclusively BDB, so I learned how to identify roots and search that way. I much prefer to simply look up the word as-is. For a dictionary that you want to carry with you, CHALOT is the way to go.

[nili]

The first word in question is, in the lexical form, תַּחְתִּי taḥtî, which means "the lowest part." In Holladay's A Concise Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament (CHALOT), the author says specifically with regard to Genesis 6:16 that it means "lowest storey" (in a house/building). ...

Please permit me a quick side question: How would you compare CHALOT with Brown-Driver-Briggs?

(1) CHALOT is easier to search because it lists words by form rather than theoretical root.
(2) CHALOT is easier to carry around, but it's also more compact (giving glosses rather than explanations).
(3) CHALOT is more up-to-date than BDB.

When I started biblical Hebrew, we used exclusively BDB, so I learned how to identify roots and search that way. I much prefer to simply look up the word as-is. For a dictionary that you want to carry with you, CHALOT is the way to go.

Thank you.

[zoe_lithoi@yahoo.com]

It's a courtesy to the readership to quote the verse in Hebrew when you're asking about it. In this case, and with your question in red, Genesis 6:16 is:

צֹ֣הַר ׀ תַּֽעֲשֶׂ֣ה לַתֵּבָ֗ה וְאֶל־אַמָּה֙ תְּכַלֶּ֣נָּה מִלְמַ֔עְלָה וּפֶ֥תַח הַתֵּבָ֖ה בְּצִדָּ֣הּ תָּשִׂ֑ים
תַּחְתִּיִּ֛ם שְׁנִיִּ֥ם וּשְׁלִשִׁ֖ים תַּֽעֲשֶֽׂהָ׃

As far as transliteration is concerned, I would render this is academic transcription as taḥtiyyim shniyyim ûšĕlīšîm. The third word does not have an n (that is, נ) in it at all, as you have in your transliteration.

The first word in question is, in the lexical form, תַּחְתִּי taḥtî, which means "the lowest part." In Holladay's A Concise Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament (CHALOT), the author says specifically with regard to Genesis 6:16 that it means "lowest storey" (in a house/building). Here is the entry for this word:

תַּחְתִּי: f. תַּחַתִּית, תַּחְתִּיָּה; pl. תַּחְתִּיּוֹת: the lower, lowest: storey Gn 6:16, millstone Jb 41:16; taḥtiyyôt hāʾāreṣ the depths of the earth Is 44:23, = ereṣ taḥtît Ez 31:14 & ereṣ taḥtiyyôt 26:20; taḥtiyyôt lᵉ lowest parts of Ne 4:7.

I'd take the words to indicate that there were to be three floors. I'm not aware that there was a specific biblical word for "floor" or "storey." We use the word קוֹמָה qômâ in modern Hebrew as spoken in Israel. Biblically, this word meant "height," for which we use גּ֫וֹבַהּ gốḇah (also a biblical word) exclusively today. Thus, while both of these terms meant "height" in the Bible, in modern Hebrew the former became "floor" (of a building) and the latter became "height" exclusively, whether of a building or of a person or of anything else.

It seems to me that the tachtiyim are the "lower parts" of the ark, while the shniyim are the second floor up ("secondary places") and the shlishim are the third floor up ("third places"). The words shniyim and shlishim simply mean "second" and "third," respectively, and they should be taken in contrast to tachtiyim, which surely refers to the lowest floor. The plural is inconsequential. It is plural because it is the parts that are lower of the ship.

Greetings,

I think it instructive to compare Gen 6:16 to Ezek 42:6 because both have similar constructs:

[Gen 6:16 KJV] 16 A window shalt thou make to the ark, and in a cubit shalt thou finish it above; and the door of the ark shalt thou set in the side thereof; [with] lower, second, and third [stories] shalt thou make it.

Gen 6:16  צֹהַר תַּעֲשֶׂה לַתֵּבָה וְאֶל־אַמָּה תְּכַלֶנָּה מִלְמַעְלָה וּפֶתַח הַתֵּבָה בְּצִדָּהּ תָּשִׂים תַּחְתִּיִּם שְׁנִיִּם וּשְׁלִשִׁים תַּֽעֲשֶֽׂהָ׃

For they were in three stories, but had not pillars as the pillars of the courts: therefore the building was straitened more than the lowest and the middlemost from the ground.
Ezek. 42:6  כִּי מְשֻׁלָּשֹׁות הֵנָּה וְאֵין לָהֶן עַמּוּדִים כְּעַמּוּדֵי הַחֲצֵרֹות עַל־כֵּן נֶאֱצַל מֵהַתַּחְתֹּונֹות וּמֵהַתִּֽיכֹנֹות מֵהָאָֽרֶץ׃

Now, compare the similar sections found in both verses:

Gen 6:16 ....lower, second, and third [stories]

תַּחְתִּיִּם שְׁנִיִּם וּשְׁלִשִׁים

shĕliyshiy-im (third)   sheniy-im (second)   tachtiy-im (lower)



Ezek. 42:6 For they were in three stories, .....the lowest and the middlemost from the ground.

....מֵהַתַּחְתֹּונֹות וּמֵהַתִּֽיכֹנֹות 

mhtChtwnwt (lower)
mhtyknwt (middlemost)

1. In English, both the Ark and the Temple have three stories.
2. In english and Hebrew, each has a lower 'storie'
3. In Hebrew, each 'story' has a plural ending.... in Gen 6:16, the ending is 'im', while in Ezek 42:6 it it 'wt'.

In contrast
Gen 6:16 has a lower, second, and third;
while
Ezek 42:6 has just a lower and middlemost

What happened to the third storie in Ezek 42:6?

Toby

[Jason]

Ah, I see what you're asking now. I don't know about a third storey to the Ezekiel Temple. I cannot say that I've invested time in trying to imagine its dimensions or how it would look.

That said, have you spent any time in the Mikraot Gdolot or any other commentary on the passage? What did the commentators (הַמְפָרְשִׁים) have to say about it?

[zoe_lithoi@yahoo.com]

Ah, I see what you're asking now. I don't know about a third storey to the Ezekiel Temple. I cannot say that I've invested time in trying to imagine its dimensions or how it would look.

That said, have you spent any time in the Mikraot Gdolot or any other commentary on the passage? What did the commentators (הַמְפָרְשִׁים) have to say about it?

Thanks for the heads up.   itried and couldn't figure it out.

[zoe_lithoi@yahoo.com]

It's a courtesy to the readership to quote the verse in Hebrew when you're asking about it. In this case, and with your question in red, Genesis 6:16 is:

צֹ֣הַר ׀ תַּֽעֲשֶׂ֣ה לַתֵּבָ֗ה וְאֶל־אַמָּה֙ תְּכַלֶּ֣נָּה מִלְמַ֔עְלָה וּפֶ֥תַח הַתֵּבָ֖ה בְּצִדָּ֣הּ תָּשִׂ֑ים
תַּחְתִּיִּ֛ם שְׁנִיִּ֥ם וּשְׁלִשִׁ֖ים תַּֽעֲשֶֽׂהָ׃

As far as transliteration is concerned, I would render this is academic transcription as taḥtiyyim shniyyim ûšĕlīšîm. The third word does not have an n (that is, נ) in it at all, as you have in your transliteration.

The first word in question is, in the lexical form, תַּחְתִּי taḥtî, which means "the lowest part." In Holladay's A Concise Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament (CHALOT), the author says specifically with regard to Genesis 6:16 that it means "lowest storey" (in a house/building). Here is the entry for this word:

תַּחְתִּי: f. תַּחַתִּית, תַּחְתִּיָּה; pl. תַּחְתִּיּוֹת: the lower, lowest: storey Gn 6:16, millstone Jb 41:16; taḥtiyyôt hāʾāreṣ the depths of the earth Is 44:23, = ereṣ taḥtît Ez 31:14 & ereṣ taḥtiyyôt 26:20; taḥtiyyôt lᵉ lowest parts of Ne 4:7.

I'd take the words to indicate that there were to be three floors. I'm not aware that there was a specific biblical word for "floor" or "storey." We use the word קוֹמָה qômâ in modern Hebrew as spoken in Israel. Biblically, this word meant "height," for which we use גּ֫וֹבַהּ gốḇah (also a biblical word) exclusively today. Thus, while both of these terms meant "height" in the Bible, in modern Hebrew the former became "floor" (of a building) and the latter became "height" exclusively, whether of a building or of a person or of anything else.

It seems to me that the tachtiyim are the "lower parts" of the ark, while the shniyim are the second floor up ("secondary places") and the shlishim are the third floor up ("third places"). The words shniyim and shlishim simply mean "second" and "third," respectively, and they should be taken in contrast to tachtiyim, which surely refers to the lowest floor. The plural is inconsequential. It is plural because it is the parts that are lower of the ship.

Greetings,

I think it instructive to compare Gen 6:16 to Ezek 42:6 because both have similar constructs:

[Gen 6:16 KJV] 16 A window shalt thou make to the ark, and in a cubit shalt thou finish it above; and the door of the ark shalt thou set in the side thereof; [with] lower, second, and third [stories] shalt thou make it.

Gen 6:16  צֹהַר תַּעֲשֶׂה לַתֵּבָה וְאֶל־אַמָּה תְּכַלֶנָּה מִלְמַעְלָה וּפֶתַח הַתֵּבָה בְּצִדָּהּ תָּשִׂים תַּחְתִּיִּם שְׁנִיִּם וּשְׁלִשִׁים תַּֽעֲשֶֽׂהָ׃

For they were in three stories, but had not pillars as the pillars of the courts: therefore the building was straitened more than the lowest and the middlemost from the ground.
Ezek. 42:6  כִּי מְשֻׁלָּשֹׁות הֵנָּה וְאֵין לָהֶן עַמּוּדִים כְּעַמּוּדֵי הַחֲצֵרֹות עַל־כֵּן נֶאֱצַל מֵהַתַּחְתֹּונֹות וּמֵהַתִּֽיכֹנֹות מֵהָאָֽרֶץ׃

Now, compare the similar sections found in both verses:

Gen 6:16 ....lower, second, and third [stories]

תַּחְתִּיִּם שְׁנִיִּם וּשְׁלִשִׁים

shĕliyshiy-im (third)   sheniy-im (second)   tachtiy-im (lower)



Ezek. 42:6 For they were in three stories, .....the lowest and the middlemost from the ground.

....מֵהַתַּחְתֹּונֹות וּמֵהַתִּֽיכֹנֹות 

mhtChtwnwt (lower)
mhtyknwt (middlemost)

1. In English, both the Ark and the Temple have three stories.
2. In english and Hebrew, each has a lower 'storie'
3. In Hebrew, each 'story' has a plural ending.... in Gen 6:16, the ending is 'im', while in Ezek 42:6 it it 'wt'.

In contrast
Gen 6:16 has a lower, second, and third;
while
Ezek 42:6 has just a lower and middlemost

What happened to the third storie in Ezek 42:6?

Toby

Hi all or anybody,

   I'm getting the idea that the living/storage quarters of Noah's ark might be somewhat comparable in size to the Solomonic/Ezekiel temple. I and others are of the opinion that Noah's ark might be describe as being composed in very simplified form, two or more basic parts, which we might call (1) the living/storage quarters, and (2) the 'floatation' part.  Similarly, we might classify the temple as composed of the inner and outer parts. The output part would be composed of (1) chambers surrounding the inner part and (2) the outer court. 

In comparison, we find in Ez 42, 'fifty cubits' mentioned thrice, and the ark's bread in Gen 6 was also fifty cubits.
In comparison, we find in Gen 6, the height of the ark was 30 cubits which matches the height of Solomon's temple in I Kings 6.

'100 cubits' is mentioned twice in relation to the temple in Ezek 42... in vs 8 it says:  '...before the temple were an hundred cubits.'.
Noah's ark being 300 cubits long, then I suppose the 100 cubits would correspond to the distance from 1 end of the ark to 1 side of the living/storage quarters'. 

Regards the other '100 cubits' we read:
[Eze 42:1-2 KJV] 1 Then he brought me forth into the utter court, the way toward the north: and he brought me into the chamber that [was] over against the separate place, and which [was] before the building toward the north. 2 Before the length of an 
----hundred cubits---- [was] the north door, and the breadth [was] fifty cubits.

Ezekiel was 'inside the chamber, and he looked across at the north door, and it was 100 cubits away..... at least that's the way I read it. So the inner part of the temple was maybe 50 x 100 cubits.

Hence, the living/storage quarters of the ark were 50 x 100 cubits, leaving 100 cubits on each side of it to each end respectively adding up to the 300 cubits total.

   I'm still trying to track down the 'three stories' in Gen 6:16 (The living/storage quarters on the Ark) and Ezek 42:6 (temple). It appears to me, that the ARK may have had more than the commonly accepted 'three stories'. It seems to be say lowers, middles, and uppers.  It also seems possible that the lowers are below the main deck. Both passages have plural endings, though the Gen 6:26 has an 'im' ending while Ezek 42:6 has the 'WT' ending. From what I gleaned the 'WT' ending is used for additional purposes than 'im', such as when you want to sort of combine/shorten the root ending ....or perhaps when the 'number'/'gender' is not important?  I guess, for my purposes it may not be important. 

I guess that's enough for now.

Toby