General Discussion The Singularity and Judaism

[James the Servant]

The purpose of this post is to primarily for me to get a feel on how interested people are on singularitarian thought. If you are unfamiliar with this subject, I suggest read this article:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singularitarianism

Better yet, if you really want a better source of information, read Ray Kurzweil's book, "The Singularity is Near." I have read it, and it has changed the way I view life.

Ray Kurzweil is a secular Jew of great importance. Though he probably doesn't follow the Torah, he still has Jewish intelligence and wisdom.

Towards the end of his book, he stated, "The universe is not conscious--yet." That sentence baffled me, and naturally I looked in the Tanak to see if our ancestors have prophesied about this. I may have found a verse that backs up Dr. Kurzweil's claim:


"Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the LORD; awake, as in the ancient days, in the generations of old. Art thou not it that hath cut Rahab, and wounded the dragon?"
Isaiah 51:9

The word arm comes from the Hebrew word זְרוֹעַ. Perhaps Isaiah was using זְרוֹעַ as a metaphor for the universe?

Thoughts?

[RabbiO]

What exactly do you mean by "Jewish wisdom"?

What exactly do you mean by "Jewish intelligence"?

Based upon what appears to be your need to defend Kurzweil's secularism, are you laboring under a misconception that the Jews who are members of this forum are all traditionalists in terms of Jewish belief and practice?

Why would you "naturally" look in the Tanakh to see if there was some kind of prophecy regarding Kurweil's remarks? When Ben Bag Bag said, "Turn it around and turn it around for everything is in it." that is not what he was talking about.

As for the verse from Isaiah you quoted, we are taught that scripture, literally "Torah", has 70 faces, that is that there are infinite legitimate ways of interpreting verses. This does not mean, of course, that every interpretation is legitimate. Only because you asked, in my opinion, your interpretation is totally off the tracks.

[a_Sarah]

Boy Rabbi, you sure can break things down to its foundation.

Jewish wisdom is hard to define objectively. Its something part of the culture of Judaism. I can see it in people like Einstein and Kurzweil. Its too abstract to really define what it is. I just notice it.

Though controversial, some have done research and found that Ashkenazi Jews are generally more intelligent than the average person.

I am not assuming everyone is fundamentalist and orthodox, I was just testing the waters to see who would be interested in singularitarianism.

I "naturally" looked because I see some similarities between singularitarianism and Jewish tanakh. I feel like it would be a fun challenge to combine the two into one. Isaiah and Ezekiel both are early futurists in my opinion.

Why is my opinion off tracks?

Ah, I just asked about how you connect the singularity and Kurzweil's thoughts in your other thread, this one answers my questions a bit. I am interested, from a philosophical perspective, in what Kurzweil has to say. 
But I need to clarify that his postponing the arrival of the singularity has become a running gag among colleagues from my faculty (in fact one even made it her goal in life to outlive Kurzweil simply out of spite for his claims regarding immortality) and while I do believe that AI will eventually surpass human level intelligence (especially with AIs that train each other, which we already have), it is rather insignificant, to me, since human level intelligence is just an arbitrary point that we set from our perspective, so why should AI algorithms have this human-centric ceiling. In fact, we already do have algorithms that initially train on humans, then continue their "studies" on their own (by practicing against themselves) only to emerge better than most human players, for example in Starcraft II- Sure, this is narrow AI, but I think it is just a matter of time until we reach a generalized AI. But if it will be beneficial will be another question and this is where I think Kurzweil needs to curb his enthusiasm a bit. We modelled the AI to fullfill tasks that we hope they will be better at than us and succeeded, then we modelled them because we thought they could NOT be better than us (creativity, imagination) and still succeeded. The MABA MABA lists are shrinking ((hu)mans are better at, machines are better at, originally introduced for function allocation in Human Machine contexts). 

But while we see those successes and while many algorithms use simplified structures based on biological brains (neural networks), we also see that the kind of intelligence is at the same time very human like, but also alien. There are AI algorithms at work that help people set up experiments for quantum entangelment, which is hard for scientists to do since the setups are somewhat counter intuitive and non-predictable. The AI did it and managed to find more and even more efficient setups. This is beneficial (and still narrow), but if you'd start to apply AI logic to human needs, emotional, personal ones, the helpfulness might shift. I think it was Nick Bostrom who wrote about the example of a generalized AI we'd ask to show us the path to happiness - who might decide the easiest path would be to stimulate our dopamine centres, task achieved. 

There have been warnings from scientists such as Stephen Hawking and even an open letter persisting on focussing to make the generalized AI a beneficial one. I hope for a beneficial version, but I am very sceptical (I'm more with Nick Bostrom here - once you open the box, it is out). So for me, it is not the "big revelation", the one huge development everything is waiting for, but an undertaking that has to be done in moderation, with worldwide combined efforts and in adherence to guidelines that should help us avoid negative consequences. I think that the risks actually outweigh the benefits, at least, if we wish to continue life as we know it. If AI is more capable than us in every single aspect, what will be left? What will be our purpose? I am not speaking about losing jobs, this is a development where society needs to react anyway should we start to leave the age of work for living. I'm speaking about living a fullfilled live in a world where AI can do anything better than you. Play better, draw better, make better poetry, tell better jokes...will we still have place in that picture?

So, I apologize for this long wall of text, but this is a topic where you can just say "Singularity" and the room of five students produces ten different opinions. By the way, this is the only parallel I see to Judaism.

[James the Servant]

Ah, I just asked about how you connect the singularity and Kurzweil's thoughts in your other thread, this one answers my questions a bit. I am interested, from a philosophical perspective, in what Kurzweil has to say. 
But I need to clarify that his postponing the arrival of the singularity has become a running gag among colleagues from my faculty (in fact one even made it her goal in life to outlive Kurzweil simply out of spite for his claims regarding immortality) and while I do believe that AI will eventually surpass human level intelligence (especially with AIs that train each other, which we already have), it is rather insignificant, to me, since human level intelligence is just an arbitrary point that we set from our perspective, so why should AI algorithms have this human-centric ceiling. In fact, we already do have algorithms that initially train on humans, then continue their "studies" on their own (by practicing against themselves) only to emerge better than most human players, for example in Starcraft II- Sure, this is narrow AI, but I think it is just a matter of time until we reach a generalized AI. But if it will be beneficial will be another question and this is where I think Kurzweil needs to curb his enthusiasm a bit. We modelled the AI to fullfill tasks that we hope they will be better at than us and succeeded, then we modelled them because we thought they could NOT be better than us (creativity, imagination) and still succeeded. The MABA MABA lists are shrinking ((hu)mans are better at, machines are better at, originally introduced for function allocation in Human Machine contexts). 

But while we see those successes and while many algorithms use simplified structures based on biological brains (neural networks), we also see that the kind of intelligence is at the same time very human like, but also alien. There are AI algorithms at work that help people set up experiments for quantum entangelment, which is hard for scientists to do since the setups are somewhat counter intuitive and non-predictable. The AI did it and managed to find more and even more efficient setups. This is beneficial (and still narrow), but if you'd start to apply AI logic to human needs, emotional, personal ones, the helpfulness might shift. I think it was Nick Bostrom who wrote about the example of a generalized AI we'd ask to show us the path to happiness - who might decide the easiest path would be to stimulate our dopamine centres, task achieved. 

There have been warnings from scientists such as Stephen Hawking and even an open letter persisting on focussing to make the generalized AI a beneficial one. I hope for a beneficial version, but I am very sceptical (I'm more with Nick Bostrom here - once you open the box, it is out). So for me, it is not the "big revelation", the one huge development everything is waiting for, but an undertaking that has to be done in moderation, with worldwide combined efforts and in adherence to guidelines that should help us avoid negative consequences. I think that the risks actually outweigh the benefits, at least, if we wish to continue life as we know it. If AI is more capable than us in every single aspect, what will be left? What will be our purpose? I am not speaking about losing jobs, this is a development where society needs to react anyway should we start to leave the age of work for living. I'm speaking about living a fullfilled live in a world where AI can do anything better than you. Play better, draw better, make better poetry, tell better jokes...will we still have place in that picture?

So, I apologize for this long wall of text, but this is a topic where you can just say "Singularity" and the room of five students produces ten different opinions. By the way, this is the only parallel I see to Judaism.

Thought provoking response.

Check out my answer here:

https://www.thehebrewcafe.com/forum/show...hp?tid=277&page=2

[James the Servant]

Sarah, you said,

"If AI is more capable than us in every single aspect, what will be left? What will be our purpose?"

Our purpose during those days would be to just live life. The AI will be way above us doing its own thing. We'll be like little children playing, without a worry in sight.

[a_Sarah]

This is a complex topic to talk about, and trying to answer it concisely without writing a detailed book about it is like walking across a tight rope. I will try my best to answer your question.

First, it all begins with Jacob's prophesy:

"The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be."
Genesis 49:10

Jacob predicted that Shiloh (which means "the pacificator") will come and usurp Jewish authority over earth. I personally believe that a single mortal human couldn't establish worldwide peace and keep it indefinitely without the help of a superintelligence. So basically, I believe that Shiloh is the name of the superintelligence that will arise after the singularity. The Israelites or Hebrews knew that something amazing was going to happen in the future, they just didn't know the details on how it would happen (until now, thanks to Ray Kurzweil).

Second of all, I predict that there may be resistance in forming a singularity, as the Luddites will be afraid of what will happen to humanity. Jews are stiff-necked, passionate, and courageous once they set their minds onto something. They WILL do anything to accomplish their goal. Just look at how Israel the nation was established. Just imagine how much red tape they had to overcome to establish that nation. I can't see this determination in any other culture. If the Jews want the singularity to happen, it will happen even if the entire world surrounds them to stop them.

Third of all, Jews have experience with dealing with a good and evil deity. The superintelligence that will arise will be beyond human comprehension and may do good and/or evil to us. After all, they recognized long ago that HASHEM is capable of both good and evil actions.

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."
Isaiah 45:7

Fourth, Isaiah, Ezekiel, and Jeremiah both prophesied heavily that there will be a drastic world change some day. I believe those days are coming soon. There are so many references to this, I don't feel like listing them all. But some examples is the prediction of immortality, living in worldwide peace, justice being established, etc...

You said, "Would you like to expand a bit on how Kurzweil's thoughts influenced your worldview?"

All I can say is read his book "The Singularity is Near." It will answer most of your questions. I can say that he changed my worldview when he said that the universe is "unconscious" and can be woken up someday. I want this to happen.

You said,

"and, most likely, come from the google labs, at least the narrow AIs that surpassed human level performance were created by them, so I'd rather bet my money on them and their manpower to give that initial spark, rather than Israel as a nation, no offense meant"

Did you know that Google is ran by Larry Page, a Jew?

And to your last question: I am not part of any congregation. I am a lone wolf. 

Thank you for your elaboration. I quoted your posting from the other thread in full here so the other topic can stay on topic.

I think I can follow the connection you made between the quotes you cited and what you wrote about a superintelligence. However, especially in light of the open letter regarding responsible development in the field of AI, I would not think pushing for that against resistance of even a minority (more realistically, it would probably a large percentage of the population not cool with that) would be a good thing. If a superintelligence arises at one point, ALL humans are affected. It would only be fair that everyone has a say. I would not want to helplessly watch while some research group opens pandoras box with the off chance that what emerges has our well-being in mind. In turn, I can recommend Nick Bostroms Book Superintelligence - Paths, Dangers, Strategies. 

Third of all, Jews have experience with dealing with a good and evil deity. The superintelligence that will arise will be beyond human comprehension and may do good and/or evil to us. After all, they recognized long ago that HASHEM is capable of both good and evil actions.

I am not very knowledgeable yet about everything g-d is described as. However, from secondary sources I have several times read or heard that it is emphasized that humans also are equipped with a free will and that we have options, that it is upon us to make our choices instead of being passive and waiting for things to take their course. 
I personally have a problem with accepting the idea of the singularity as the ultimate beneficial action, as the consequences are unforeseen and also because it reduces us to recipients of it's goodwill while we lose our agency. And again, why should it be good? At least, good for us?

Also, the concept of tikkun olam, the betterment of the state of the world and the benefit of others and society, is in my interpretation a continuous task. And also a task on so many levels that I think assuming a superintelligence would solve all our problems is also a very human-centric way of thinking (and hoping). 

Did you know that Google is ran by Larry Page, a Jew?

I was not aware of his name or that he is Jewish, but it also doesn't matter. Research and the development of new approaches to AI is a group effort. Science in general is a group effort. We build our advancement on the shoulders of those who researched before us, we use methods and packages others publish, we have others reviewing our papers, we generate new ideas by coming together in conferences and we build support networks to collaborate. Therefore, if it might be google, it is still the result of a decade long undertaking of a multitude of researchers, regardless of their gender, religion or nationality. And it certainly cannot be done by a small group of people pushing their agenda against all protests. To be honest, and after all this has led to in the past, this is actually a very frightening outlook to me and I wish this to never happen. 

Regarding your stance on Jews..hm, how should I put it. I mean no offense. I was a bit sceptical that you titeled Kurzweil as "the Ingenious SuperJew". To me it seems also from your texts that you have a very strong image of Jews as a very uniform group of people that are superior than the others. Do you think every jewish person would support the creation of a superintelligence? Not only Larry Page, but also the ultra-orthodox mother of twelve in Brooklyn, the secular barkeeper in Tel Aviv, the 80 year old who likes to visit his reform synagogue or the kids in your towns jewish kindergarden?
I also feel that looking for famous Jews "who run and control things" is not that helpful regarding all the Antisemitism that there already is and that often states exactly that - that Jews supposedly run the Media, Banking --- and now even the company who will likely be on the forefront of developing a generalized AI that will, strictly speaking, control the world! 

I was asking if you are in a congregation because you wrote that you started out as a Catholic. I started out as someone without any confession and have been learning about Judaism since last October only, so I still feel as if I know nothing. But one of the most important lessons I learned so far is that you cannot fully understand Judaism without it's people and without community. I'd also add that you cannot get a better picture about the actual jewish life and it's real people than by visiting a congregation.