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Judaism: The most powerful reason on why I reject Jesus as messiah
#11
(08-13-2019, 09:27 AM)Jason wrote:
(08-13-2019, 01:31 AM)nili wrote: That's certainly OK. Pawning off Carrier's position as fact strikes me as somewhat less so.  Big Grin

Who's pawning anything off?

It seemed to me that you were. Perhaps I was mistaken.

(08-13-2019, 09:27 AM)Jason wrote: Pawning off the stories written about Jesus as if they were fact is just foolish.

OK. And many would say something similar about Moses.

But -- returning to Jesus -- I distinguish between claims of divinity and claims of historicity as does Carrier (along with most others familiar with the Jesus debates).

(08-13-2019, 09:27 AM)Jason wrote: Why should I believe what the gospels have to say about anything?

I'm simply suggesting that you should believe in the distinction between opinion and fact.

(08-13-2019, 09:27 AM)Jason wrote: What evidence do we have for believing in a historical Jesus?

I would argue that the presumption of historicity is an instance of inference to best explanation.

If you could briefly share the evidence we have for believing in an historical Moses it would give me some sense of what you mean by the term.

(I'm heading off to visit a bunch of grandkids and will be offline for about a week. Have a great week.)
To be is to stand for. - Abraham Joshua Heschel
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#12
(08-13-2019, 12:42 PM)nili wrote: OK. And many would say something similar about Moses.

Indeed.

(08-13-2019, 12:42 PM)nili wrote: But -- returning to Jesus -- I distinguish between claims of divinity and claims of historicity as does Carrier (along with most others familiar with the Jesus debates).

That's just the problem, though. Jesus supposedly existed at a time when many small-time wannabe Messiahs were running around. If the NT is to be trusted, Jesus was much more high profile than any of these other claimants to the throne. However, in the work of the historians of the time, several of these minor insurgents were mentioned and their tales told. Jesus wasn't mentioned by a single one - and he should have been. Thousands of people supposedly followed him from the Galilee Lake to the mountains of Jerusalem. He supposedly led a three-year ministry healing the sick, raising the dead, preaching the gospel to the poor, feeding thousands with a couple of loaves of bread and a few fish. If anyone should have received a simple mention by one of the many historians of the time, it was Jesus. That is, unless the story was simply invented after the fact (which I think it was).

The emergence of Christianity can be better explained without a historical Jesus.

(08-13-2019, 12:42 PM)nili wrote: I'm simply suggesting that you should believe in the distinction between opinion and fact.

I do. I've read books on the "historical Jesus." Most recently, I read Bart Ehrman's Did Jesus Exist?. I don't stick my head in the sand and ignore what people offer in defense of historicity. There just isn't any evidence where evidence really should exist. In this case, absence of evidence is indeed evidence of absence.

(08-13-2019, 12:42 PM)nili wrote: If you could briefly share the evidence we have for believing in an historical Moses it would give me some sense of what you mean by the term.

I don't recall claiming that Moses was an historical person. It's good enough that we have historical mentionings of the House of David and the kings of Israel. I don't know that we could even expect to find a mention of Moses in historical materials.

(08-13-2019, 12:42 PM)nili wrote: (I'm heading off to visit a bunch of grandkids and will be offline for about a week. Have a great week.)

I hope you had fun. I've taken up some new Hebrew students in the past weeks. Looking forward to teaching from the new Hebrew grammar Learning Biblical Hebrew and its workbook by Kutz and Josberger.
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#13
(08-13-2019, 02:38 PM)Jason wrote: I hope you had fun. I've taken up some new Hebrew students in the past weeks. Looking forward to teaching from the new Hebrew grammar Learning Biblical Hebrew and its workbook by Kutz and Josberger.

Jason,

We had lots fun but, damn, these grandkids grow up fast. The kids that use to squeal with delight when I bought them slushies are now buying prom dresses.

I'd like to return to the HJ discussion when I;m a bit less tired -- perhaps a s early as tomorrow -- but, for now, I'd like to hear more about this class.

L'shalom ...
To be is to stand for. - Abraham Joshua Heschel
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#14
There isn't much to tell until I get underway. Smile
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#15
(06-30-2019, 02:37 AM)James the Servant wrote: Jesus was not of the line of David, and therefore was not the messiah. I am going to use the Christian Bible and genetics to prove it.

Jesus’ adopted father Joseph never impregnated Mary, since Mary was somehow impregnated by G-d (Matthew 1:18). Therefore Joseph’s Israelite y-chromosome (a feature that can only be passed down from a human father to a human son through sperm) could have never been passed down to Jesus. Because of this, Jesus was not an Israelite, nor did he carry the root of Jesse. Instead, Jesus was just a demigod. Therefore, Jesus would have supposedly carried the y-chromosome of G-d, suggesting that G-d is a man… and G-d is not a man (Numbers 23:19). G-d does not have a y-chromsome because G-d is spirit.
"24 This left Jacob all alone in the camp, and a man came and wrestled with him until the dawn began to break. 25 When the man saw that he would not win the match, he touched Jacob’s hip and wrenched it out of its socket. 26 Then the man said, “Let me go, for the dawn is breaking!”

But Jacob said, “I will not let you go unless you bless me.”
27 “What is your name?” the man asked.
He replied, “Jacob.”
28 “Your name will no longer be Jacob,” the man told him. “From now on you will be called Israel,[a] because you have fought with God and with men and have won.”
29 “Please tell me your name,” Jacob said.
“Why do you want to know my name?” the man replied. Then he blessed Jacob there.
30 Jacob named the place Peniel (which means “face of God”), for he said, “I have seen God face to face, yet my life has been spared.”  Genesis 32: 24-30

If GOD can't become a man?Who fought with Jacob?Was it a man or GOD? why does Jacob say He saw the face of GOD and lived to tell the tale?
Why does Jacob  subsequently refer to the One he fought with ,as man and GOD when talking about this event?
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#16
(06-30-2019, 02:37 AM)James the Servant wrote: Jesus was not of the line of David, and therefore was not the messiah. I am going to use the Christian Bible and genetics to prove it.

Jesus’ adopted father Joseph never impregnated Mary, since Mary was somehow impregnated by G-d (Matthew 1:18). Therefore Joseph’s Israelite y-chromosome (a feature that can only be passed down from a human father to a human son through sperm) could have never been passed down to Jesus. Because of this, Jesus was not an Israelite, nor did he carry the root of Jesse. Instead, Jesus was just a demigod. Therefore, Jesus would have supposedly carried the y-chromosome of G-d, suggesting that G-d is a man… and G-d is not a man (Numbers 23:19). G-d does not have a y-chromsome because G-d is spirit.
[b]"1[/b]The LORD appeared again to Abraham near the oak grove belonging to Mamre. One day Abraham was sitting at the entrance to his tent during the hottest part of the day. [b]2[/b]He looked up and noticed three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he ran to meet them and welcomed them, bowing low to the ground.
[b]6[/b]So Abraham ran back to the tent and said to Sarah, “Hurry! Get three large measuresa of your best flour, knead it into dough, and bake some bread.” [b]7[/b]Then Abraham ran out to the herd and chose a tender calf and gave it to his servant, who quickly prepared it. [b]8[/b]When the food was ready, Abraham took some yogurt and milk and the roasted meat, and he served it to the men. As they ate, Abraham waited on them in the shade of the trees.Then the LORD said to Abraham, “Why did Sarah laugh? Why did she say, ‘Can an old woman like me have a baby?’ [b]14 [/b]Is anything too hard for the LORD? I will return about this time next year, and Sarah will have a son.”
" Genesis 18

Why does abraham referred to GOD and the the two angels as men?  And how can the LORD eat the yogurt and roasted meat if He is only spirit? Can a spirit GOD eat ?why is GOD referred as THE LORD(aka GOD) and man at the same time? Why does one of the men refer himself as THE LORD(aka GOD)?
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#17
(08-28-2019, 10:37 PM)serviteur wrote: "24 This left Jacob all alone in the camp, and a man came and wrestled with him until the dawn began to break. 25 When the man saw that he would not win the match, he touched Jacob’s hip and wrenched it out of its socket. 26 Then the man said, “Let me go, for the dawn is breaking!”

But Jacob said, “I will not let you go unless you bless me.”
27 “What is your name?” the man asked.
He replied, “Jacob.”
28 “Your name will no longer be Jacob,” the man told him. “From now on you will be called Israel,[a] because you have fought with God and with men and have won.”
29 “Please tell me your name,” Jacob said.
“Why do you want to know my name?” the man replied. Then he blessed Jacob there.
30 Jacob named the place Peniel (which means “face of God”), for he said, “I have seen God face to face, yet my life has been spared.”  Genesis 32: 24-30

If GOD can't become a man?Who fought with Jacob?Was it a man or GOD? why does Jacob say He saw the face of GOD and lived to tell the tale?
Why does Jacob  subsequently refer to the One he fought with ,as man and GOD when talking about this event?


Hosea 12:4-5 tells us who Jacob wrestled with -

(JPT)

4 - In the womb, he seized his brother's heel, and with his strength he strove with an angel.

5 - He strove with an angel and prevailed; he wept and beseeched him; In Bethel he shall find Him, and there He shall speak with us.


Where does it say Jacob saw the face of G-d and lived?

It specifically says that no one can see the face of G-d and live.

Exodus 33:20 - And He said, "You will not be able to see My face, for man shall not see Me and live."

So who should I believe, the Torah or you?
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#18
(08-28-2019, 10:50 PM)serviteur wrote:
(06-30-2019, 02:37 AM)James the Servant wrote: Jesus was not of the line of David, and therefore was not the messiah. I am going to use the Christian Bible and genetics to prove it.

Jesus’ adopted father Joseph never impregnated Mary, since Mary was somehow impregnated by G-d (Matthew 1:18). Therefore Joseph’s Israelite y-chromosome (a feature that can only be passed down from a human father to a human son through sperm) could have never been passed down to Jesus. Because of this, Jesus was not an Israelite, nor did he carry the root of Jesse. Instead, Jesus was just a demigod. Therefore, Jesus would have supposedly carried the y-chromosome of G-d, suggesting that G-d is a man… and G-d is not a man (Numbers 23:19). G-d does not have a y-chromsome because G-d is spirit.
[b]"1[/b]The LORD appeared again to Abraham near the oak grove belonging to Mamre. One day Abraham was sitting at the entrance to his tent during the hottest part of the day. [b]2[/b]He looked up and noticed three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he ran to meet them and welcomed them, bowing low to the ground.
[b]6[/b]So Abraham ran back to the tent and said to Sarah, “Hurry! Get three large measuresa of your best flour, knead it into dough, and bake some bread.” [b]7[/b]Then Abraham ran out to the herd and chose a tender calf and gave it to his servant, who quickly prepared it. [b]8[/b]When the food was ready, Abraham took some yogurt and milk and the roasted meat, and he served it to the men. As they ate, Abraham waited on them in the shade of the trees.Then the LORD said to Abraham, “Why did Sarah laugh? Why did she say, ‘Can an old woman like me have a baby?’ [b]14 [/b]Is anything too hard for the LORD? I will return about this time next year, and Sarah will have a son.”
" Genesis 18

Why does abraham referred to GOD and the the two angels as men?  And how can the LORD eat the yogurt and roasted meat if He is only spirit? Can a spirit GOD eat ?why is GOD referred as THE LORD(aka GOD) and man at the same time? Why does one of the men refer himself as THE LORD(aka GOD)?

Not sure how your post answers James about Jesus not being from the line of David.


Let's look at what the text actually says -

Genesis 18:1 - Now the Lord appeared to him in the plains of Mamre, and he was sitting at the entrance of the tent when the day was hot.


So here we see G-d appeared to Abraham.

Next - 18:2 - And he lifted his eyes and saw, and behold, three men were standing beside him, and he saw and he ran toward them from the entrance of the tent, and he prostrated himself to the ground.


So first G-d appeared to Abraham and then Abraham lifted his eyes and saw 3 men, who were angels.
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#19
(08-29-2019, 12:07 AM)searchinmyroots wrote: Not sure how your post answers James about Jesus not being from the line of David.


Let's look at what the text actually says -

Genesis 18:1 - Now the Lord appeared to him in the plains of Mamre, and he was sitting at the entrance of the tent when the day was hot.


So here we see G-d appeared to Abraham.

Next - 18:2 - And he lifted his eyes and saw, and behold, three men were standing beside him, and he saw and he ran toward them from the entrance of the tent, and he prostrated himself to the ground.


So first G-d appeared to Abraham and then Abraham lifted his eyes and saw 3 men, who were angels.
"Not sure how your post answers James about Jesus not being from the line of David."

"Therefore, Jesus would have supposedly carried the y-chromosome of G-d, suggesting that G-d is a man… and G-d is not a man (Numbers 23:19). G-d does not have a y-chromsome because G-d is spirit." I was trying to answer this.
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#20
(08-29-2019, 12:07 AM)searchinmyroots wrote: Not sure how your post answers James about Jesus not being from the line of David.


Let's look at what the text actually says -

Genesis 18:1 - Now the Lord appeared to him in the plains of Mamre, and he was sitting at the entrance of the tent when the day was hot.


So here we see G-d appeared to Abraham.

Next - 18:2 - And he lifted his eyes and saw, and behold, three men were standing beside him, and he saw and he ran toward them from the entrance of the tent, and he prostrated himself to the ground.


So first G-d appeared to Abraham and then Abraham lifted his eyes and saw 3 men, who were angels
[quote pid='2045' dateline='1567037235']
"So first G-d appeared to Abraham and then Abraham lifted his eyes and saw 3 men, who were angels."
"The other men turned and headed toward Sodom, but the LORD remained with Abraham. Abraham approached him and said, “Will you sweep away both the righteous and the wicked? "Genesis 18
The LORD remained because HE was physically there,only  two angels went to Sodom.Notice that only two beings came to Sodom not three "
And the two angels came to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom; and Lot saw them, and rose up to meet them; and he fell down on his face to the earth"Genesis 19
It is important also to notice that the LORD chastised Sarah for laughing,was Sarah eavesdropping conversation from heaven?or was she listening to a physical conversation

"Sarah was afraid, so she denied it, saying, “I didn’t laugh.”But the LORD said, “No, you did laugh.”


[/quote]
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