General Discussion The Messiah and Isaiah 53

[Peergint]

In a different thread, a line of discussion started which I would like to explore in this thread.



I had mentioned that I wanted to understand regarding Jewish belief and I quoted regarding Jesus that the Old Testament had many references to the coming Messiah and the following was stated in reply:

"Isaiah 53 has nothing to do with a messiah or Jesus. If you understood the Hebrew language that would be clear."

"I repeat, there is nothing in the Hebrew bible that specifically refers to Jesus, you have been led down the wrong path as have many for thousands of years, but I understand, that's not your fault."

To be honest I don't understand that last statement. Whilst I do not know the Hebrew Bible, I am willing to learn which is why I joined this website. 

I have just searched on the web for Isaiah 53 in the Hebrew Bible and found many sites stating this is a forbidden chapter. Why would this be?

One website states the following in its introduction:

Isaiah 53 The Forbidden Chapter.

The 17th century Jewish historian, Raphael Levi, admitted that long ago the rabbis used to read Isaiah 53 in synagogues, but after the chapter caused “arguments and great confusion” the rabbis decided that the simplest thing would be to just take that prophecy out of the Haftarah readings in synagogues. That’s why today when we read Isaiah 52, we stop in the middle of the chapter and the week after we jump straight to Isaiah 54.

I don't understand so can anyone explain it to me please?

May I also ask, who are these verses talking about? Can you please tell me?

Isaiah 53
He is despised and rejected by men,
A Man of sorrows and acquainted with [f]grief.
And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him;
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.

4 Surely He has borne our griefs
And carried our sorrows;
Yet we esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten by God, and afflicted.
5 But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed.

I know many Jewish people do not believe in Jesus or that He is the Messiah, whilst Christians do. 
I'm hopeful we can discuss it a little so that I can gain an understanding. 
Just to be sure, I would like you to know that I am not trying to cause offence in case anyone should think that is the case. I respect everyone's views and it is important that you know I am asking with the uttermost respect.

Many thanks.

[searchinmyroots]

Thank you for starting a new thread and thank you for your questions.

My replies are as follows -

There is absolutely nothing that is "forbidden" about Isaiah 53, that is why you an pick up any Hebrew bible and find it there. If it was forbidden, I would have to guess it would have been removed so no one can see it.

As far as your quote from a historian goes, I would ask you if you understand what a Haftorah is and why/when it is used?

But how about instead of quoting historians, if we take a look at what the Hebrew bible says?

Just to let you know, there are no chapter breaks in the original scrolls, that is something that was added later by Christians. So Isaiah 53 is just a continuation of 52 and leads right into chapter 54.

Here is something I wrote on another website that might help you see why Chapter 53 is not about Jesus -

Christianity teaches Jesus died for your sins and by his blood you are justified. Well, let’s read Isaiah 53 again and see what it says. It says the servant was wounded from the sins of others (according to the Hebrew), not that he died for the sins of others. I’m sure you would agree being wounded is not the same as being dead. It says we will be justified by the servant’s knowledge. Nothing about being justified by blood.


So that means Christians would have to say something like, “Did you hear the good news? Jesus was wounded from your sins and by his knowledge you are justified!” , if they believe this chapter is speaking of Jesus.


Now let’s look at some other details.

Does the Hebrew Bible say that Israel is despised, forsaken, wounded and afflicted? YES! (As it says in other prophecies as well)

Does the Hebrew Bible call Israel “him” in the singular? YES! (As it does in other parts of the Bible)

Does the Hebrew Bible say that Israel is like a lamb that is led to the slaughter? YES! (As it does in other parts of the Bible)

Does the Hebrew Bible say the servant mentioned in Isaiah 53 is guilty of sin? YES! The Hebrew word used for sin in verse 10 refers either to the guilt offering or the guilt/wrong itself! (And if offerings are brought up, according to the rules of sacrifice, you can’t give an offering for someone else, and a human is not a valid offering for a guilty offering, so Jesus offering himself for others is utterly ruled out, whilst the servant recognizing his own guilt is more in line with the law of God)


Does the Hebrew Bible call the servant “them”? YES! It is used in the plural! (Both in Isaiah 53:8 and Isaiah 43:10)

Does the Hebrew Bible use the word “deaths?” Yes! It is used in the plural!

So please tell me again how this chapter refers to Jesus?

[searchinmyroots]

Since you are willing to learn and want to understand, here is a very detailed answer to your question on the "forbidden" chapter -

https://outreachjudaism.org/are-the-jews...something/

[Chavak]

In a different thread, a line of discussion started which I would like to explore in this thread.



I had mentioned that I wanted to understand regarding Jewish belief and I quoted regarding Jesus that the Old Testament had many references to the coming Messiah and the following was stated in reply:

"Isaiah 53 has nothing to do with a messiah or Jesus. If you understood the Hebrew language that would be clear."

"I repeat, there is nothing in the Hebrew bible that specifically refers to Jesus, you have been led down the wrong path as have many for thousands of years, but I understand, that's not your fault."

To be honest I don't understand that last statement. Whilst I do not know the Hebrew Bible, I am willing to learn which is why I joined this website. 

I have just searched on the web for Isaiah 53 in the Hebrew Bible and found many sites stating this is a forbidden chapter. Why would this be?

One website states the following in its introduction:

Isaiah 53 The Forbidden Chapter.

The 17th century Jewish historian, Raphael Levi, admitted that long ago the rabbis used to read Isaiah 53 in synagogues, but after the chapter caused “arguments and great confusion” the rabbis decided that the simplest thing would be to just take that prophecy out of the Haftarah readings in synagogues. That’s why today when we read Isaiah 52, we stop in the middle of the chapter and the week after we jump straight to Isaiah 54.

I don't understand so can anyone explain it to me please?

May I also ask, who are these verses talking about? Can you please tell me?

Isaiah 53
He is despised and rejected by men,
A Man of sorrows and acquainted with [f]grief.
And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him;
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.

4 Surely He has borne our griefs
And carried our sorrows;
Yet we esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten by God, and afflicted.
5 But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed.

I know many Jewish people do not believe in Jesus or that He is the Messiah, whilst Christians do. 
I'm hopeful we can discuss it a little so that I can gain an understanding. 
Just to be sure, I would like you to know that I am not trying to cause offence in case anyone should think that is the case. I respect everyone's views and it is important that you know I am asking with the uttermost respect.

Many thanks.

That is obviously from a Christian/Missionary site. I would suggest going to Jewish sites if you want to know what Jews think.

[Peergint]

Thank you Chavak, that is what I will do. Could you please suggest a couple for me just to make it a little easier as I was finding it difficult to find an online Hebrew bible which also translates into English.
The verses are from the New King James bible.

[Peergint]

Thank you for starting a new thread and thank you for your questions.

My replies are as follows -

There is absolutely nothing that is "forbidden" about Isaiah 53, that is why you an pick up any Hebrew bible and find it there. If it was forbidden, I would have to guess it would have been removed so no one can see it.

As far as your quote from a historian goes, I would ask you if you understand what a Haftorah is and why/when it is used?

But how about instead of quoting historians, if we take a look at what the Hebrew bible says?

Just to let you know, there are no chapter breaks in the original scrolls, that is something that was added later by Christians. So Isaiah 53 is just a continuation of 52 and leads right into chapter 54.

Here is something I wrote on another website that might help you see why Chapter 53 is not about Jesus -

Christianity teaches Jesus died for your sins and by his blood you are justified. Well, let’s read Isaiah 53 again and see what it says. It says the servant was wounded from the sins of others (according to the Hebrew), not that he died for the sins of others. I’m sure you would agree being wounded is not the same as being dead. It says we will be justified by the servant’s knowledge. Nothing about being justified by blood.


So that means Christians would have to say something like, “Did you hear the good news? Jesus was wounded from your sins and by his knowledge you are justified!” , if they believe this chapter is speaking of Jesus.


Now let’s look at some other details.

Does the Hebrew Bible say that Israel is despised, forsaken, wounded and afflicted? YES! (As it says in other prophecies as well)

Does the Hebrew Bible call Israel “him” in the singular? YES! (As it does in other parts of the Bible)

Does the Hebrew Bible say that Israel is like a lamb that is led to the slaughter? YES! (As it does in other parts of the Bible)

Does the Hebrew Bible say the servant mentioned in Isaiah 53 is guilty of sin? YES! The Hebrew word used for sin in verse 10 refers either to the guilt offering or the guilt/wrong itself! (And if offerings are brought up, according to the rules of sacrifice, you can’t give an offering for someone else, and a human is not a valid offering for a guilty offering, so Jesus offering himself for others is utterly ruled out, whilst the servant recognizing his own guilt is more in line with the law of God)


Does the Hebrew Bible call the servant “them”? YES! It is used in the plural! (Both in Isaiah 53:8 and Isaiah 43:10)

Does the Hebrew Bible use the word “deaths?” Yes! It is used in the plural!

So please tell me again how this chapter refers to Jesus?

Christians believe that Jesus, being fully God and fully Man, died FOR OUR sins, that is the sins of the world in totality. 
According to this website which shows the Hebrew translation (https://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInte.../isa53.pdf) it says: 
"and he being wounded from transgression of us, being crushed from depravities of us." 
Doesn't this actually mean: "But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities"?
Again, I am only reading and learning.

To continue...

I have a problem with your statement that the Hebrew Bible calls the "servant" - singular spelling "them". Surely that doesn't make sense?
I looked up Isaiah 53:8 in the complete Jewish Bible and found the following:

After forcible arrest and sentencing,

he was taken away;
and none of his generation protested
his being cut off from the land of the living
for the crimes of my people,
who deserved the punishment themselves.
This Bible also mentions "he", singular. Could you please show me the Hebrew Bible translation as there is no mention of "them" here. Admitted this is not the Hebrew Bible.

This again from the Complete Jewish Bible:
Isaiah 43:10
“You are my witnesses,” says Adonai,

“and my servant whom I have chosen,
so that you can know and trust me
and understand that I am he —
no god was produced before me,
nor will any be after me.

I'm sorry but I cannot see any plurals here.

As a Christian, I believe that Jesus came to serve in His first coming. It's when He comes a second time that He will reign.

Can I ask about Daniel 9. Is it true that this is not read because a Rabbi said there was a curse on all who read it?

[searchinmyroots]

May I please correct you. Christians believe that Jesus, being fully God and fully Man, died FOR OUR sins, that is the sins of the world in totality. 
According to this website which shows the Hebrew translation (https://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInte.../isa53.pdf) it says: "and he being wounded from transgression of us, being crushed from depravities of us. Doesn't this actually mean: "But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities"?
Again, I am only reading and learning.
Once I've looked a bit further into the rest of your post, which I find interesting, I will reply further.
Thank you for being patient with me for my lack of knowledge.
I am finding this most interesting.

Peergint,

No correction necessary as that is exactly what I wrote!

As I mentioned previously, the best way to understand what is written in the Hebrew bible is to understand the Hebrew language it is written in.

In this verse, the Hebrew indicates the servant was wounded from the sins of others. Christianity teaches and as you have acknowledged, Jesus died for the sins of the world.

So what I am trying to show you is the verse in Isaiah 53 is not in agreement with what Christianity teaches.

Since you find this interesting, if you want a clearer explanation of the Hebrew words for Isaiah 53, line by line, you can find it here -

http://thejewishhome.org/counter/Isa53JP.pdf

[Jason]

I've written up two different discussions that you might find interesting. One is a discussion of chapters 52-54 of Isaiah with an eye to the Hebrew and how it cannot and does not support the claim that Jesus was the Messiah. The second is a general short treatment of why Jews reject the idea that Jesus was the Messiah. Here are the two articles:

http://www.thehebrewcafe.com/articles/isaiah_52-54.pdf
http://www.thehebrewcafe.com/articles/whynot.pdf

I think it's a HUGE and UNPARDONABLE mistake to read Isaiah 53 and claim that it's about Jesus while just ignoring the whole of the chapter that comes before and the one that comes after. In fact, the whole of the book comes to bear on this chapter. If you read Isaiah 53 within the context of Isaiah, you will not understand it to refer to Jesus.

[Peergint]

I've written up two different discussions that you might find interesting. One is a discussion of chapters 52-54 of Isaiah with an eye to the Hebrew and how it cannot and does not support the claim that Jesus was the Messiah. The second is a general short treatment of why Jews reject the idea that Jesus was the Messiah. Here are the two articles:

http://www.thehebrewcafe.com/articles/isaiah_52-54.pdf
http://www.thehebrewcafe.com/articles/whynot.pdf

I think it's a HUGE and UNPARDONABLE mistake to read Isaiah 53 and claim that it's about Jesus while just ignoring the whole of the chapter that comes before and the one that comes after. In fact, the whole of the book comes to bear on this chapter. If you read Isaiah 53 within the context of Isaiah, you will not understand it to refer to Jesus.

Hello Jason,
Just want to look at something in one of the articles you point to.

In the http://www.thehebrewcafe.com/articles/isaiah_52-54.pdf, there is a statement as follows: Suffice it to say that Isaiah identified the servant as Israel within the servant songs on several occasions (Isaiah 41:8; 44:1, 21; 45:4; 49:3). It should hardly be expected of him to repeat himself yet again when his audience would naturally read it this way. 

I agree that the scriptures quoted here refer indeed to Israel as God's chosen people. However, as he referred to Israel as the servant 5 times in the verses you quote, why would he change tack and not continue to do so? There are many occasions in the Bible where certain statements are made many more times than just 5. I believe that the Bible is God's word, and that all scripture is God breathed, insofar as He inspired man to write it all. Also for example, "And God said" and "Thus says the Lord" is repeated in the Old Testament so many times. I think God was making sure we knew it was Him who was speaking. So why wouldn't God repeat Himself in Isaiah also?


Regarding the following statement:
The focus on gender (and number) in the Hebrew text may seem rather odd to those who do not know Hebrew, but it actually comes as the result of discussions with missionaries and Christian defenders of Isaiah 53 as the messianic text par excellence of the Hebrew Bible.

Would you please explain the idea of male and female in Hebrew? To me, someone who doesn't know Hebrew, I would look at it such as a ship or an aircraft or Nation, as being referred to as "she", "her", etc. Whereas the statement regarding Christians or missionary "defenders" of Isaiah 53 referring to "A" Servant makes sense. If God would have wanted us to think of the Servant as the nation of Israel, why would He say in verses 14 and 15 "His" visage, "His" form, etc?

I'm still reading through these documents, (may take some time as I try to understand it all), but I wanted to ask, do you or have you, I mean the wider people of Israel read the New Testament and especially Revelation as a book of prophecy? Don't mean to ask what some may seem as a silly question, just wanted to know.

Also, as prophecies are throughout the Bible, do you watch to see what prophecies have so far come true? As far as I know, and I certainly do not doubt it, all prophecies have come true, and there are more yet to come. All prophecies refer to Israel or both Israel and Jerusalem. Revelation in the New Testament is especially about the end times which I believe we are now in.

This is very enjoyable. Thank you.

[Peergint]

May I please correct you. Christians believe that Jesus, being fully God and fully Man, died FOR OUR sins, that is the sins of the world in totality. 
According to this website which shows the Hebrew translation (https://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInte.../isa53.pdf) it says: "and he being wounded from transgression of us, being crushed from depravities of us. Doesn't this actually mean: "But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities"?
Again, I am only reading and learning.
Once I've looked a bit further into the rest of your post, which I find interesting, I will reply further.
Thank you for being patient with me for my lack of knowledge.
I am finding this most interesting.

Peergint,

No correction necessary as that is exactly what I wrote!

As I mentioned previously, the best way to understand what is written in the Hebrew bible is to understand the Hebrew language it is written in.

In this verse, the Hebrew indicates the servant was wounded from the sins of others. Christianity teaches and as you have acknowledged, Jesus died for the sins of the world.

So what I am trying to show you is the verse in Isaiah 53 is not in agreement with what Christianity teaches.

Since you find this interesting, if you want a clearer explanation of the Hebrew words for Isaiah 53, line by line, you can find it here -

http://thejewishhome.org/counter/Isa53JP.pdf

Thank you. I am taking my time looking at these documents and will certainly come back to you ASAP with more questions... probably!