Isaiah 53 Verse 10

[Blue Bird]

I'm sorry, my questions weren't answered.

[searchinmyroots]

The article I linked to does, doesn't it?

For your first question -

From page 13 -

Analysis of Isaiah 53:1-4
An introductory "thumbnail sketch" of scenes out of Jewish history should help
set the stage for understanding the next eight verses. This summary puts into
perspective the confession of guilt and admission of unjust mistreatment of Israel
by the (Gentile) nations as they begin to realize Israel's proper place and role in history


From page 16-17 -

Isaiah 53:3 describes the one whom the (Gentile) nations characterize as having
been despised, as being a "man of pains" who is accustomed to illness, and
similar pictures were drawn elsewhere in the Hebrew Bible. The lesson here is
that all this has been going on for long periods of time, for centuries. Therefore,
these descriptions can only be of a people, not of a single individual.

Page 18 should answer your 2nd question.

[Praise El Shaddai]

Jesus may have taught many good things, but that doesn't qualify him to be the Jewish messiah.
There is a very long list of reasons why most Jewish people do not accept him a either G-d or the messiah.
Have you not heard about any of those reasons?

He taught like absolutly outstanding things like:
Love your enemies (who else did this in history?) -
Bless who curses you -
who sees me sees the father -
and so on...

In general I think it is the same for Jews or any other people in the world why they don't want to accept Jesus as Messiah, since the evidence in the scriptures about him, his teachings, wonders and his death and resurrection is for everybody accessible very well documented and by many testified.
It is similar for people of all kind of background to have at first a stone heart and don't want to change their way of living and thinking and stay their own "gods" or lords and aren't humble enough to find out and accept how god really is. So most people just stick with the lie that it was all just a consistent lie invented by hundreds of different people.

For Jews, who really believe in god and the Tanakh, as a Christian you would assume it must be so obvious that Jesus was the Messiah, since so many phrases correspond just perfectly to his life.
On the other side I have to agree I don't know very well all the arguments, but I heard a couple of times that they expect The Messiah directly coming in glory bringing Israel to it's former or even greater glory, bringing peace on earth and so on.
But for me this is like taking just the passages of the Tanakh that fit into what you like to hear, but all the passages were it mentions that he will have to suffer, he will be poor, that he will have to die, to put to a grave and all that stuff will be just ignored by many Jews, because they don't like to hear that!?

But the Jews are also right since The Messiah will come and do all this beautiful stuff they are waiting for, but it will be Jesus. So he was already here but few accepted him like this.

But the sacrifice was needed, before the glory! To get clean before god.
How do Jews nowadays get relieved from their sins? 
They are not even sacrificing sheep and cattle anymore! So they are all in their sins and will die in their sins like everybody else on this planet who doesn't accept the sacrifice god himself offered.
It is quite straight forward and all the Tanakh makes sense with Jesus the Messiah, but without him... where is the temple? What about the sin? since 2400 years god is silent, no prophets any more!? What is going on?

Sorry, that is just my humble unqualified perspectiv about the Jewish faith without Jesus.

[searchinmyroots]

I'm sorry but I don't see the evidence you are speaking of. Where does it say a messiah will do those things?

So you are saying the Jewish people are taking passages and making them fit into what they want to hear? It seems more likely the other way around.

Do we need a Temple to be forgiven for our sins? What does the Hebrew bible say?

How were the Jewish people forgiven for their sins during the years between the 1st and 2nd temples?

The Hebrew bible tells us explicitly what the world will be like when we are in the messianic era.

As far as I can see, when I look at the world and what has happened in the past 2000 years or so, none of it has happened or maybe some of it is just starting to happen.

The Hebrew bible clearly explains what the world will be and look like.

Turn on the news (just for a brief moment) and please tell me if that time is now.

[Praise El Shaddai]

So you are saying the Jewish people are taking passages and making them fit into what they want to hear?

First we have to distinguish:
There are all kinds of Jews, some who don't believe in god, few who believe that Jesus was the Messiah and others who believe in the god JHWH of the "old testament" (what you call the "Hebrew bible"!?)

And about those last group of Jews (probably the majority) I think they don't want to hear these passages where it is written that the Messiah will have to suffer:

Isaiah 53:
"4 Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

It fits just so perfectly to Jesus, that it is overwhelming prophecy.
He is the promised Messiah, voluntary sacrifce to burden our sins to become redeemer for all mankind and conquerer of death, got resurrected by god and is alive. I believe that.

Do we need a Temple to be forgiven for our sins? What does the Hebrew bible say?

You are right, a temple is not needed, but after the old bond of Moses there is sacrifice needed, blood. Or not?

The Hebrew bible clearly explains what the world will be and look like.

The bible I am reading and every bible so far I have seen is written with all its 66 books completely by Jews or Israelites. Maybe I miss 1 or 2 non Israeli autors, then please correct me.
But almost everything about the one true god is passed down by Jews, even all the books, letters and scriptures between 0-100 AD about Jesus and the Apostles. It is just that Jews and many others don't want to believe them.

As far as I can see, when I look at the world and what has happened in the past 2000 years or so, none of it has happened or maybe some of it is just starting to happen.

I don't understand what you mean by that.... what should happen or not?
But it is all happening according to what Jesus said:

Mat. 24:
12 And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold.
13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

That time is now. All need to know that there is hope if they repent and follow Jesus the anointed king by god...
the Messiah. Sorry I can't and don't want to convince anybody, it is just the truth I need to speak of.

Grace and peace from god!

[searchinmyroots]

You said -
"First we have to distinguish:
There are all kinds of Jews, some who don't believe in god, few who believe that Jesus was the Messiah and others who believe in the god JHWH of the "old testament" (what you call the "Hebrew bible"!?)

And about those last group of Jews (probably the majority) I think they don't want to hear these passages where it is written that the Messiah will have to suffer"


Agreed, there are all types of Jews, some more observant than others and some not observant at all.

It's not "what you call the "Hebrew Bible", it is the Hebrew Bible! Don't forget we have the original, way before the Christian bible.

What do you mean "don't want to hear passages that the Messiah will have to suffer". We read everything and question everything. Yes, there are certain thoughts in Judaism that the Messiah will suffer.

You said -
"It fits just so perfectly to Jesus, that it is overwhelming prophecy.

He is the promised Messiah, voluntary sacrifice to burden our sins to become redeemer for all mankind and conquerer of death, got resurrected by god and is alive. I believe that."

Yes, from a Christian perspective it fits really well. Especially if the meanings of the words are changed to fit that perspective.

I understand what you believe, it just has nothing to do with what the Hebrew Bible teaches.

You said -
"You are right, a temple is not needed, but after the old bond of Moses there is sacrifice needed, blood. Or not?

No, blood is not needed. How were the Israelite's forgiven for their sins in the 70 years between the 1st and 2nd Temple?

What doe II Chronicles 7:14 say and many other passages in the Hebrew bible?


You said -
"The bible I am reading and every bible so far I have seen is written with all its 66 books completely by Jews or Israelites. Maybe I miss 1 or 2 non Israeli autors, then please correct me.

But almost everything about the one true god is passed down by Jews, even all the books, letters and scriptures between 0-100 AD about Jesus and the Apostles. It is just that Jews and many others don't want to believe them."

You missed the point of my question, let me rephrase it - According to the Hebrew Bible, what will the world look like in the messianic age when the Messiah comes?

You said -
"I don't understand what you mean by that.... what should happen or not? "

That's part of the problem here, you don't understand what the Hebrew Bible says about the messianic age. Not what the Christian Bible says, what the Hebrew Bible says. It's very clear, surprised you missed it.

You said -
"Sorry I can't and don't want to convince anybody, it is just the truth I need to speak of."

That's fine, you are welcome to believe what you think it the truth, no convincing here!

[Blue Bird]

Listen, Praise, you need to be better grounded in both the old testament and the new testament. It is dangerous to claim to speak the truth, yet to be uncertain of how you know it is the truth. And if it is the truth, why don't you want to convince others? Is this truth you speak of unimportant?

What a change since you introduced yourself. It seemed to me that you were quite confused about being a Christian, now you are teaching others.

[RabbiO]

But if a Jew really humbles himself, he will say, "God I need your help, I can't get rid of the sin and circumcise my heart, do with me as you see fit," and God will forgive his sin. Maybe then, maybe later, God will lead him to see the truth, and show him how God was able to forgive his sin, with or without animal sacrifices, and he will believe in the one who did the real Yom Kippur once for all.

If you want to debate with someone who on some level identifies as a Christian then I suggest the two of you find some other forum to do so. 

As to, among other things, the last paragraph of your post that is naked proselytizing and out of place here. If that is how you expect to spend your time here might I suggest that this would be a good time to exit this forum. Proselytizing is unwelcome here.

[Jason]

Post has been deleted and user issued a warning.

[RabbiO]

Post has been deleted and user issued a warning.

Will we have the pleasure of seeing more of you in the future than we have in the recent past. You are greatly missed.

How are you?