To Veil or Not to Veil

[searchinmyroots]

Nobody is answering my question....

Let me say this first. Paul’s comments are not reflected in the words as written in the Torah.

Now let me say this. The first sentence in your original post gave me pause. It is so wrongheaded

Give it some thought and try to figure it out. If you can’t we’ll talk about it after the end of Pesach.

This one?

"It seems that many verses in the Christian bible for some reason or another, change what is actually written in the Hebrew bible."

No, I don't see what is so wrongheaded with it, please elaborate.

Is it not true that many verses are said to be "as it was written" but when actually looked at in detail isn't what was written at all? Or the meaning was changed to mean something different?

[RabbiO]

No, I don't see what is so wrongheaded with it, please elaborate.

Is it not true that many verses are said to be "as it was written" but when actually looked at in detail isn't what was written at all? Or the meaning was changed to mean something different?

As you are probably aware, for me, as a Reform rabbi, tonight is the last night of Pesach and tomorrow is the last day. These hours before erev Shabbat are kind of hectic so bear with me for just awhile longer.

[Blue Bird]

Nobody is answering my question, I'll be more specific -

What is Paul saying about Moses and the veil as it relates to the Israelite's?

I tried to answer your question,  Why did he cover his face?

Isn't the second question answered in your quote above (2 Corinthins 3)?

Yes, you wrote - "Moses covered his face because G-ds Glory was too bright to look at, right? "

Is that what Exodus 34 says? Read specifically verses 29-35 - 

https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9895

How does what Paul said about Moses and a veil relate to that?

Well, essentially I think yes. Moses spent 40 days and 40 nights in the presence of the Lord. As a result, His Glory was reflected on Moses face and he wasn't aware of that. "and they were afraid to come near him". The context shows that he used the veil to hide the brightness of his face so that the people don't have to to be afraid.

Same in Exodus chapter 20, vers 15&16: And all the people saw the voices and the torches, the sound of the shofar, and the smoking mountain, and the people saw and trembled; so they stood from afar.
 They said to Moses, "You speak with us, and we will hear, but let God not speak with us lest we die.

Why this difference between Moses and the people? chapter 33, vers 11: Then the Lord would speak to Moses face to face, as a man would speak to his companion.

It's hot territory to talk about Paul here. Obviously you think that he twists the Hebrew bible, I think he says the truth.

[Dana]

In 2 Corinthians 3 we have Paul saying -

"12Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. 13We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelite's from gazing at the end of what was fading away. 14But their minds were closed. For to this day the same veil remains at the reading of the old covenant. It has not been lifted, because only in Jesus can it be removed."

Where does Paul get this from?

I'm guessing he is referring to Exodus 34 when Moses came down from the mountain.

Yes, from Exodus.  Paul would have done better to spin his mythology from clean cloth rather than take from the Torah, centuries removed, and fill pages of what he believes to be the intentions and motivations of the Israelites.  

He uses metaphorical language referencing the veil with the 'old covenant' and their, the Israelites, 'dull minds' of not being able to see due to the veil (i.e. spiritual blindness) still being in place to this day when the Torah is read.  

None of this is in Exodus. None.

[Ismq]

Why moses would covered his face?

[searchinmyroots]

Thank you for all of your replies. it's interesting to hear of your thoughts on the verses.


So is Paul saying - "Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelite's from gazing at the end of what was fading away"


The problem I see with that is Moses never had a veil or covering on his face when he either spoke to the Israelite's or when he spoke with G-d. The text clearly says when he put the covering on and it never was when he spoke to either of them.

So how could the Israelite's be gazing at Moses face covering if he never had it on when he spoke to them?

What was fading away? It couldn't possibly be the Torah that was just given moments ago, could it?

[searchinmyroots]

It's hot territory to talk about Paul here. Obviously you think that he twists the Hebrew bible, I think he says the truth.

Okay, I'll give another example then. (Emphasis mine)

How about Romans 11?

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.


Is that what is written in the Hebrew bible?

What is written in the Hebrew bible is this -

Isaiah 20:And a redeemer shall come to Zion, and to those who repent of transgression in Jacob, says the Lord.

Read it carefully and then please explain to me how this is not twisted scripture.

[Ismq]

Thank you for all of your replies. it's interesting to hear of your thoughts on the verses.


So is Paul saying - "Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelite's from gazing at the end of what was fading away"


The problem I see with that is Moses never had a veil or covering on his face when he either spoke to the Israelite's or when he spoke with G-d. The text clearly says when he put the covering on and it never was when he spoke to either of them.

So how could the Israelite's be gazing at Moses face covering if he never had it on when he spoke to them?

What was fading away? It couldn't possibly be the Torah that was just given moments ago, could it?

But that verse does not say that he put the veil "when he spoke with the israelites".

[searchinmyroots]

Thank you for all of your replies. it's interesting to hear of your thoughts on the verses.


So is Paul saying - "Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelite's from gazing at the end of what was fading away"


The problem I see with that is Moses never had a veil or covering on his face when he either spoke to the Israelite's or when he spoke with G-d. The text clearly says when he put the covering on and it never was when he spoke to either of them.

So how could the Israelite's be gazing at Moses face covering if he never had it on when he spoke to them?

What was fading away? It couldn't possibly be the Torah that was just given moments ago, could it?

But that verse does not say that he put the veil "when he spoke with the israelites".

Which verse are you referring to Ismq, the one in 2 Corinthians or the one in Exodus?

[Ismq]

Thank you for all of your replies. it's interesting to hear of your thoughts on the verses.


So is Paul saying - "Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelite's from gazing at the end of what was fading away"


The problem I see with that is Moses never had a veil or covering on his face when he either spoke to the Israelite's or when he spoke with G-d. The text clearly says when he put the covering on and it never was when he spoke to either of them.

So how could the Israelite's be gazing at Moses face covering if he never had it on when he spoke to them?

What was fading away? It couldn't possibly be the Torah that was just given moments ago, could it?

But that verse does not say that he put the veil "when he spoke with the israelites".

Which verse are you referring to Ismq, the one in 2 Corinthians or the one in Exodus?

Corinthians,of course.