Judaism vs Christianity

[searchinmyroots]

Blue Bird,

Not sure why you made that Paul comment, let's try to keep the conversation going in the right direction.

Yes, blood and certain types of offerings can atone for certain sins.

Numbers 31-50 says -

"We therefore wish to bring an offering for the Lord. Any man who found a gold article, be it an anklet, a bracelet, a ring, an earring, or a body ornament, to atone for our souls before the Lord."

And Exodus 30:15 says -
"The rich shall give no more, and the poor shall give no less than half a shekel, with which to give the offering to the Lord, to atone for your souls."

So it looks like there are other ways to atone for our souls, not just Leviticus 17:11.

And if I'm not mistaken, Hebrew 9:22 doesn't mention "atonement for our souls", it refers to remission of sin.

I could list many verses, from Jonah, Jeremiah, II Chronicles, I Kings, Daniel and Hosea to name a few, that show forgiveness of sin without the shedding of blood.

[Blue Bird]

Blue Bird,

I'm not sure if I want to have this discussion as I don't want to offend you even if it is not my purpose.

Here is a quick one that I'm sure can be debated with no real outcome -

Paul says in Hebrews 9:22 -
"And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission"

What does Paul mean by that? I don't need to know about Jesus and how he shed his blood for the remission of sin, I want to know what Paul means because obviously he is referring to the Hebrew bible.

Please try to keep it short and to the point.

I'm not trying to silence your view, just don't want to go off in all different directions.

Thank you Blue Bird.

I look forward to a respectful discussion.

Please you too try to keep it short and to the point so we don't go off in all different directions.

For it is the blood that atones for the soul.

There is no mention that it means only specific sins that are atoned by blood or that there are other ways to atone for the soul.

My English isn't that good, so I might misunderstand you. You said:

Yes, blood and certain types of offerings can atone for certain sins.

... means to me that sins are forgiven or remissioned. I don't understand where you see the difference to the remission of sin in Hebrews.

Honestly I think your mind is in a fight mode and it doesn't really matter what I answer you.

[searchinmyroots]

So the other parts of G-d's word don't apply?

Who makes that decision?

Here they are again for you to see (emphasis mine) -

Numbers 31-50 says -

"We therefore wish to bring an offering for the Lord. Any man who found a gold article, be it an anklet, a bracelet, a ring, an earring, or a body ornament, to atone for our souls before the Lord."

And Exodus 30:15 says -
"The rich shall give no more, and the poor shall give no less than half a shekel, with which to give the offering to the Lord, to atone for your souls."


Obviously there is no mention of blood required to atone.

If I'm not mistaken, there is a difference in the Hebrew words used for atonement and forgiveness.

I'm not "in fight mode", I'm just pointing out things from the Hebrew bible and am responding very carefully to your comments. What brings you to believe I am trying to "fight"?

Why can't you reply in kind to my examples of atonement that do not require blood?

[Blue Bird]

Well, I thought you didn't want me to go through the whole Bible to answer your questions. A good suggestion by the way. I too was overwhelmed by the many scriptures you mentioned.

My answer is: I don't think an anklet can atone for our souls. Yes, it is written, but it is also written that riches cannot redeem the soul.

The redemption of their soul will be too dear, and unattainable forever. (Psalms 49:9)

[Blue Bird]

In context one sees that it is not Moses who wrote about the anklets as atonement, but the idea of ​​the disobedient general.

[searchinmyroots]

Don't see where I listed so many scriptures, just 2 that I can see. The rest were just references to other books of the Hebrew bible and I purposely didn't list all of the verses.

There is a BIG difference between "riches" and an anklet.

I'm not sure who you are referring to as a "disobedient general". And even so, why would he bring an offering of those items to "atone for our souls before the Lord" if he didn't think it would do anything?

What about Exodus 30? You seemed to have overlooked that as it is clearly spoken from G-d.

Here is a recap (again emphasis mine) -

11 - The Lord spoke to Moses, saying:

12 - When you take the sum of the children of Israel according to their numbers, let each one give to the Lord an atonement for his soul when they are counted; then there will be no plague among them when they are counted.

13 - This they shall give, everyone who goes through the counting: half a shekel according to the holy shekel. Twenty gerahs equal one shekel; half of [such] a shekel shall be an offering to the Lord.

14 - Everyone who goes through the counting, from the age of twenty and upward, shall give an offering to the Lord.

15 - The rich shall give no more, and the poor shall give no less than half a shekel, with which to give the offering to the Lord, to atone for your souls.

[Blue Bird]

I just skimmed the text with the anklets to get the context. I meant the leaders who spoke to Moses. It's late and I'm going to bed soon. I'm tired so I'll simplify a bit now. The leaders followed their own thoughts on who should be killed and I think they also followed their own thoughts on the offering. More of a King Saul type maybe. I have no proof of that, it's just my impression.

I don't have an answer to your second question about Exodus 30, other than it doesn't mention sins that need to be taken away. Just as the firstborn son must be redeemed or replaced by an animal... but here's blood again. Maybe I'll have clearer thoughts on that tomorrow.

You say nothing about the Psalm I mentioned and the verses in Leviticus 17:11. Isn't that important to you?

[searchinmyroots]

The way I see that specific verse (9) in Psalm 49, it is referring to "Those who rely on their possessions and boast of their great wealth".


As for Leviticus 17:11, it's really about the whole chapter.

It is talking about what an abomination it is to eat the blood of the offering and all who eat it will be cut off. The chapter doesn't seem to speak of  one type of offering, it lists many including the peace offering.

So let me ask you another question.

There were 70 years between the 1st and 2nd Temple.

If blood is the only way to have remission of sin, then what did all who lived during that period do?

Does the Hebrew bible tell us anywhere?

[Blue Bird]

searchinmyroots, let's go back to your original question and start from there. I hope to touch on your question above, too.
But first I want to make it clear that these are my thoughts from this morning and not an attempt to give a full explanation that I could not give.

Here is a quick one that I'm sure can be debated with no real outcome -

Paul says in Hebrews 9:22 -
"And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission"

What does Paul mean by that? I don't need to know about Jesus and how he shed his blood for the remission of sin, I want to know what Paul means because obviously he is referring to the Hebrew bible.

Have you read the Christian Bible in context from the beginning to the end before? If we zoom back a bit and look not only at the verse in Hebrews 9:22 but also at the context, you can see that Paul is only talking about the rituals performed in the Temple in Jerusalem and the Tent of Meeting. You can read about it yourself in Chapters 8 and 9. He is aware that there was a time when there was no temple and no blood sacrifice as he writes to the Galatians about Abraham's righteousness by faith (Galatians 3:6).

Since Paul is only talking about the rituals in the temple in Jerusalem and in the Tent of Meeting, let's look at those. I don't like blood and I'm not a blood fetishist. But when I look at the descriptions, there really is blood everywhere. Exodus 30:10 says:

But Aaron shall make atonement upon its horns once a year; with the blood of the sin offering of the atonements, once a year he shall effect atonement upon it for your generations; it is a holy of holies to the Lord.

Leviticus - Chapter 4:
When the sin which they had committed becomes known, the congregation shall bring a young bull as a sin offering. They shall bring it before the Tent of Meeting. The anointed kohen shall bring some of the bull's blood into the Tent of Meeting, and the kohen shall dip his finger from the blood, and sprinkle [it] seven times before the Lord, before the dividing curtain. And he shall then place some of the blood on the horns of the altar that is before the Lord in the Tent of Meeting. And then he shall pour all the blood onto the base of the altar [used] for burnt offerings, which is at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting.

And it goes on and on and on with all sorts of sins and blood sacrifices for the sins.

I think there are two dimensions here. One is the timeline and the other is the extension to the people. When Exodus 30:10 says that the atonement was made only once a year, it means that the other days of the year were covered by that one event (and perhaps times were also covered when the Temple did not exist). This might explain why blood was not needed every time someone sinned. Also, only one person, the high priest, performed the ritual for everyone. I don't know, but maybe that offering counted as an offering for the people of Nineveh as well.

[searchinmyroots]

Blue Bird,

Thank you, I like the way you put your post together.

To be honest, I've read bits and pieces of the Christian bible, but that was many years ago. You are probably the only one that has ever stated that Paul isn't speaking in general, but specifically about the rituals in the Temple.

Yes, blood is everywhere and it's not only for sin offerings. It's for peace and thanksgiving offerings as well.

So now that we've cleared that up, and if what you are saying is correct, then it seems to me you don't need a blood sacrifice for remission of sin, there are other ways to do so, correct?