Question on 'im' ending in Gen 6:16

[Jason]

That's an odd connection to make. I think I can honestly say I've never heard anyone try to draw a comparison between the two.

[zoe_lithoi@yahoo.com]

That's an odd connection to make. I think I can honestly say I've never heard anyone try to draw a comparison between the two.

I know right?

What's unique is the comparison of the dimensions.

What's not as unique is the comparison of the ark to the temple, for example:


"https://www.academia.edu/21809546/On_the...e_Covenant
On the Ark of Noah and the Ark of the Covenant
The Ark of Noah expresses the “three worlds” by the three “decks” ofthe Ark (Gen.6:16) and the division of “all living things” into “birds,” “animals” and“every kind of creature that creeps along the ground” (Gen.6:20). With the Ark of theCovenant, the “three worlds” are expressed horizontally by the three main divisions ofthe Temple (the Portico, the Great Chamber and the Sanctuary), and vertically by thethree “storeys” of the Temple (1Kgs.6:8)   .... By extension to the Temple the “three worlds” are the Portico (ulam); the Great Chamber (hekal ); and the Sanctuary (debir  ) (see 1Kgs.6; cf.Ezk.40 & 41). With the Ark of Noah the “three worlds” are static or simultaneous within the Ark. "

See also:
http://reformedanswers.org/answer.asp/file/46637

Best,
  Toby

[zoe_lithoi@yahoo.com]

It's a courtesy to the readership to quote the verse in Hebrew when you're asking about it. In this case, and with your question in red, Genesis 6:16 is:

צֹ֣הַר ׀ תַּֽעֲשֶׂ֣ה לַתֵּבָ֗ה וְאֶל־אַמָּה֙ תְּכַלֶּ֣נָּה מִלְמַ֔עְלָה וּפֶ֥תַח הַתֵּבָ֖ה בְּצִדָּ֣הּ תָּשִׂ֑ים
תַּחְתִּיִּ֛ם שְׁנִיִּ֥ם וּשְׁלִשִׁ֖ים תַּֽעֲשֶֽׂהָ׃

As far as transliteration is concerned, I would render this is academic transcription as taḥtiyyim shniyyim ûšĕlīšîm. The third word does not have an n (that is, נ) in it at all, as you have in your transliteration.

The first word in question is, in the lexical form, תַּחְתִּי taḥtî, which means "the lowest part." In Holladay's A Concise Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament (CHALOT), the author says specifically with regard to Genesis 6:16 that it means "lowest storey" (in a house/building). Here is the entry for this word:

תַּחְתִּי: f. תַּחַתִּית, תַּחְתִּיָּה; pl. תַּחְתִּיּוֹת: the lower, lowest: storey Gn 6:16, millstone Jb 41:16; taḥtiyyôt hāʾāreṣ the depths of the earth Is 44:23, = ereṣ taḥtît Ez 31:14 & ereṣ taḥtiyyôt 26:20; taḥtiyyôt lᵉ lowest parts of Ne 4:7.

I'd take the words to indicate that there were to be three floors. I'm not aware that there was a specific biblical word for "floor" or "storey." We use the word קוֹמָה qômâ in modern Hebrew as spoken in Israel. Biblically, this word meant "height," for which we use גּ֫וֹבַהּ gốḇah (also a biblical word) exclusively today. Thus, while both of these terms meant "height" in the Bible, in modern Hebrew the former became "floor" (of a building) and the latter became "height" exclusively, whether of a building or of a person or of anything else.

It seems to me that the tachtiyim are the "lower parts" of the ark, while the shniyim are the second floor up ("secondary places") and the shlishim are the third floor up ("third places"). The words shniyim and shlishim simply mean "second" and "third," respectively, and they should be taken in contrast to tachtiyim, which surely refers to the lowest floor. The plural is inconsequential. It is plural because it is the parts that are lower of the ship.

Greetings,

I think it instructive to compare Gen 6:16 to Ezek 42:6 because both have similar constructs:

[Gen 6:16 KJV] 16 A window shalt thou make to the ark, and in a cubit shalt thou finish it above; and the door of the ark shalt thou set in the side thereof; [with] lower, second, and third [stories] shalt thou make it.

Gen 6:16  צֹהַר תַּעֲשֶׂה לַתֵּבָה וְאֶל־אַמָּה תְּכַלֶנָּה מִלְמַעְלָה וּפֶתַח הַתֵּבָה בְּצִדָּהּ תָּשִׂים תַּחְתִּיִּם שְׁנִיִּם וּשְׁלִשִׁים תַּֽעֲשֶֽׂהָ׃

For they were in three stories, but had not pillars as the pillars of the courts: therefore the building was straitened more than the lowest and the middlemost from the ground.
Ezek. 42:6  כִּי מְשֻׁלָּשֹׁות הֵנָּה וְאֵין לָהֶן עַמּוּדִים כְּעַמּוּדֵי הַחֲצֵרֹות עַל־כֵּן נֶאֱצַל מֵהַתַּחְתֹּונֹות וּמֵהַתִּֽיכֹנֹות מֵהָאָֽרֶץ׃

Now, compare the similar sections found in both verses:

Gen 6:16 ....lower, second, and third [stories]

תַּחְתִּיִּם שְׁנִיִּם וּשְׁלִשִׁים

shĕliyshiy-im (third)   sheniy-im (second)   tachtiy-im (lower)



Ezek. 42:6 For they were in three stories, .....the lowest and the middlemost from the ground.

....מֵהַתַּחְתֹּונֹות וּמֵהַתִּֽיכֹנֹות 

mhtChtwnwt (lower)
mhtyknwt (middlemost)

1. In English, both the Ark and the Temple have three stories.
2. In english and Hebrew, each has a lower 'storie'
3. In Hebrew, each 'story' has a plural ending.... in Gen 6:16, the ending is 'im', while in Ezek 42:6 it it 'wt'.

In contrast
Gen 6:16 has a lower, second, and third;
while
Ezek 42:6 has just a lower and middlemost

What happened to the third storie in Ezek 42:6?

Toby

It's interesting to compare the Hebrew conjugated words for the 'three stories' of the Solomonic Temple in I Kings 6 with those we already covered, ie. the Ezekiel temple (Ezek 42:6) 
מֵהַתַּחְתֹּונֹות וּמֵהַתִּֽיכֹנֹות 

and Noah's ark (Gen 6:16).
תַּחְתִּיִּם שְׁנִיִּם וּשְׁלִשִׁים

The complete verse is:
I Kings 6:8
[1Ki 6:8 KJV] 8 The door for the middle chamber [was] in the right side of the house: and they went up with winding stairs into the middle [chamber], and out of the middle into the third.
  פֶּתַח הַצֵּלָע הַתִּיכֹנָה אֶל־כֶּתֶף הַבַּיִת הַיְמָנִית וּבְלוּלִּים יַֽעֲלוּ עַל־הַתִּיכֹנָה וּמִן־הַתִּֽיכֹנָה אֶל־הַשְּׁלִשִֽׁים׃

The 'middle' and the 'third' stories are:
וּמִן־הַתִּֽיכֹנָה אֶל־הַשְּׁלִשִֽׁים

The 'third' storey has the plural ending as in Gen 6:16; however, the 'middle' is:
TIKNH

What does the h-suffix mean?

Well, I found one place that says it is the definitive, as in 'the one and only' middle floor or perhaps  'the very middlest of the middle floors'?

"...the h-suffix after 'amwr (inhabitant(s) makes this substantive definite"
http://bhebrew.biblicalhumanities.org/viewtopic.php?t=925&start=10


This 'singular' usage in I Kings 6 is in stark contrast to the plural usage in Gen 6 and Ezek 42.

So it seems to me, that the middle story had 1 floor, but the third storey had several floors.

We might also compare the famous door of Noah's ark with this I Kings 6 door in the middle chamber on the right side of the house.

[Gen 6:16 KJV] 16 A window shalt thou make to the ark, and in a cubit shalt thou finish it above; and the ----door--- of the ark shalt thou set in the ----side---- thereof; [with] lower, second, and third [stories] shalt thou make it.

Toby

[Jason]

Why do your words get bigger from post to post?

[Jason]

The 'middle' and the 'third' stories are:
וּמִן־הַתִּֽיכֹנָה אֶל־הַשְּׁלִשִֽׁים

The 'third' storey has the plural ending as in Gen 6:16; however, the 'middle' is:
TIKNH

I'm sure you mean tichoná (that is, תִּיכֹנָה tîḵōnâ).

What does the h-suffix mean?

It is the standard ending for feminine singular adjectives. For example, גָּדוֹל gāḏôl means "big," and its feminine singular form is גְּדוֹלָה gĕḏôlâ. In this case, the adjective is תִּיכֹן tîḵōn, and its feminine singular form is תיכנה tîḵōnâ.

There is nothing odd here.

Well, I found one place that says it is the definitive, as in 'the one and only' middle floor or perhaps  'the very middlest of the middle floors'?

The word "definite" does not mean "the one and only." It just means that it is preceded by the word "the." By contrast, indefinite is preceded by the word "a" or "an" in English. It's a grammatical tag. It doesn't mean that I'm talking about the one and only thing of a class. It means that I'm talking about one that I've already mentioned.

"...the h-suffix after 'amwr (inhabitant(s) makes this substantive definite"
http://bhebrew.biblicalhumanities.org/viewtopic.php?t=925&start=10

Not in Hebrew. That's how it works in Aramaic. What you're linking to is a passage from Aramaic, not from Hebrew. I know because I was participating in that thread (as you can see here—that's me!).

In Hebrew, the definite article comes BEFORE the word, not after it.

So, יֶ֫לֶד yɛ́lɛḏ means "boy" or "a boy." The definite form is הַיֶּ֫לֶד hayyɛ́lɛḏ "the boy." Adding a heh suffix would get you "girl," not "the boy." The word for "girl" is יַלְדָּה yaldâ, and its definite form is הַיַּלְדָּה hayyaldâ.

I really think that you're attempting to combine stories that were never intended to be combined. I don't see this line of thinking leading anywhere productive or real.

[zoe_lithoi@yahoo.com]

The 'middle' and the 'third' stories are:
וּמִן־הַתִּֽיכֹנָה אֶל־הַשְּׁלִשִֽׁים

The 'third' storey has the plural ending as in Gen 6:16; however, the 'middle' is:
TIKNH

I'm sure you mean tichoná (that is, תִּיכֹנָה tîḵōnâ).

What does the h-suffix mean?

It is the standard ending for feminine singular adjectives. For example, גָּדוֹל gāḏôl means "big," and its feminine singular form is גְּדוֹלָה gĕḏôlâ. In this case, the adjective is תִּיכֹן tîḵōn, and its feminine singular form is תיכנה tîḵōnâ.

There is nothing odd here.

Well, I found one place that says it is the definitive, as in 'the one and only' middle floor or perhaps  'the very middlest of the middle floors'?

The word "definite" does not mean "the one and only." It just means that it is preceded by the word "the." By contrast, indefinite is preceded by the word "a" or "an" in English. It's a grammatical tag. It doesn't mean that I'm talking about the one and only thing of a class. It means that I'm talking about one that I've already mentioned.

"...the h-suffix after 'amwr (inhabitant(s) makes this substantive definite"
http://bhebrew.biblicalhumanities.org/viewtopic.php?t=925&start=10

Not in Hebrew. That's how it works in Aramaic. What you're linking to is a passage from Aramaic, not from Hebrew. I know because I was participating in that thread (as you can see here—that's me!).

In Hebrew, the definite article comes BEFORE the word, not after it.

So, יֶ֫לֶד yɛ́lɛḏ means "boy" or "a boy." The definite form is הַיֶּ֫לֶד hayyɛ́lɛḏ "the boy." Adding a heh suffix would get you "girl," not "the boy." The word for "girl" is יַלְדָּה yaldâ, and its definite form is הַיַּלְדָּה hayyaldâ.

ok.....  the singular form of 'third storey' is referring to the feminine gender. Thanks for the correction.

...... Toby

[Dana]

I know because I was participating in that thread (as you can see here—that's me!).

Jason, what an interesting and insightful conversation among the scholars!   In particular, for me, was reading the differing points of view between you and the Norwegian scholar over the expression כּל-הַגּוֺיִם הָאֵלֶּה סָבִיב, and the various reasoning on why סָבִיב should read, by him anyway, as ambiguous.

[Jason]

I know because I was participating in that thread (as you can see here—that's me!).

Jason, what an interesting and insightful conversation among the scholars!   In particular, for me, was reading the differing points of view between you and the Norwegian scholar over the expression כּל-הַגּוֺיִם הָאֵלֶּה סָבִיב, and the various reasoning on why סָבִיב should read, by him anyway, as ambiguous.

It's been so long since I was in that thread. I'd have to read over it again to see what the argument was. LOL