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Questions about Jewish belief and the Bible
#11
(06-10-2019, 08:05 PM)searchinmyroots wrote:
(06-10-2019, 07:46 PM)nili wrote:
(06-10-2019, 12:20 PM)Peergint wrote: ... There are many bible prophecies about Him which came true, but...

Absolute rubbish.  Smile

Let's try to be a little nicer when responding please!

Thank you!

Smile

That WAS me being nicer.
To be is to stand for. - Abraham Joshua Heschel
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#12
Well, I mean, that's difficult, now, because most Christians--unless they're Mormon, would insist that God is indivisible. If you're saying that the idea that the worship of Jesus constitutes idolatry, I can understand that--however, what I would say is that we Christians believe in the same God that led you out of Egypt, that created the world, and we accept the Tanakh as authoritative and include it in our services: And it is this God, with the Unspeakable Name, that we call on.

Unless the suggestion is that we're worshipping a different god who has the same name.

But I mean, you have to understand that, to me, the words, "You're worshipping a different God" is insulting. If I said that to you, you'd probably find it equally insulting. You might as well have told me, "You're mother's a slut."

I mean, I understand you have a perspective on this, but what you've just said would be shocking to ALL Christians--and I don't think that that's too much of an exaggeration.

Do you speak for all Jews when you say that you believe that we worship a different God, or are you speaking for yourself?
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#13
(06-10-2019, 08:05 PM)searchinmyroots wrote:
(06-10-2019, 07:56 PM)nili wrote:
(06-10-2019, 04:08 PM)searchinmyroots wrote: ... We do not need an interpretation, because we have the original Hebrew it was written in.

Our oldest textual witnesses come from the DSS and date to, roughly, the second century B.C.E. Meanwhile, the oldest Masoretic text dates to some nine centuries later.

So, no, we do not have the "original Hebrew."

Nili,

What I am referring to is that the Hebrew bible is written in Hebrew, not an interpretation of it.

And yet scholars often resort to cognate studies to understand what the text means; elsewhere they simply note: "Hebrew meaning uncertain." Big Grin
To be is to stand for. - Abraham Joshua Heschel
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#14
(06-10-2019, 08:22 PM)Jude86 wrote: ... Do you speak for all Jews when you say that you believe that we worship a different God, or are you speaking for yourself?

Can I assume that you're not referring to me? I would maintain that Christians have every intention to refer to the same God as that worshipped by Judaism and Islam.
To be is to stand for. - Abraham Joshua Heschel
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#15
(06-10-2019, 08:07 PM)nili wrote:
(06-10-2019, 05:51 PM)Jude86 wrote:
Quote:Actually, it's not the same G-d if you believe yours is 3 in 1.

Oh really? I didn't know that this was a point of contention. The Trinity is a super confusing concept--even to me--but the end result is that we only believe in one, indivisible God (despite what the name Trinity might imply). In Catholicism, in fact, we have the Shema Prayer as part of our liturgy insisting on one God; and our prayers, though made in the name of the Trinity always conclude--one God. ...

From Wikipedia: Shituf:

Quote:Conservative Rabbi Louis Jacobs took a more conciliatory approach:

"Christian thinkers frequently assert that Jewish polemics against trinitarianism are based on an inadequate understanding of what the doctrine really means. It is no doubt true that crude attacks on Christianity as tritheism are unfounded (tritheism is, in fact, heresy from the Christian point of view) and there are subtleties in the doctrine which Christians have tried to uncover. But the fact remains that all Jewish thinkers have rejected trinitarianism as Judaism understands it."

Well, that's comforting. I'm willing to accept that Jews and Christians conceive of the same God differently--but to accept that he's a different God ENTIRELY is heresy and anathema to me and all right-thinking Catholics.
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#16
(06-10-2019, 08:30 PM)nili wrote:
(06-10-2019, 08:22 PM)Jude86 wrote: ... Do you speak for all Jews when you say that you believe that we worship a different God, or are you speaking for yourself?

Can I assume that you're not referring to me? I would maintain that Christians have every intention to refer to the same God as that worshipped by Judaism and Islam.

No, sorry, I should have included the person to whom I was referring, my apologies.

And as to your comment . . . I mean, I guess I just took it for granted that we both believed int he same God regardless of the differences of opinion that existed among the way we attempt to approach Him in our thoughts. Maybe it's just the Jewish people whom I've met in person have just been . . . attempting to be polite to me when I've gotten into a theological discussion about God, but this is the first time I've ever encountered this idea that we Christians worship a different God. I've been part of school clubs that acknowledged that Christians Muslims and Jews worshipped the same God and never once did the Jewish block leave and say, "Actually, you guys worship a different god than us, so we're gonna leave."

All I mean to say with this is that it's just such a formative idea with me (that we worship the same God)--and the Jewish people whom I knew personally never told me otherwise, only confirming what I thought--that this is just . . . kinda off the wall to me.

And I'm sorry, but I'm still kinda reeling from this idea.

Edit--

I will be very frank at this point: It feels like a door has been slammed shut in my face and I suddenly feel very distant.
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#17
I apologize again if what I wrote was offensive to you.

So yes, I think you believe in the same G-d as the Father figure, the One who took us out of Egypt.

But, sorry to throw this in, according to Judaism, if someone worships something other than G-d the Father, then that is considered idolatry.

Please know there are different opinions as to whether it is considered idolatry or not.

I' not trying to be offensive and don't think the "your mother is a slut" is a good comparison. A better one might be is what you think of Joseph Smith or the prophet Muhammad. Do you believe what they wrote was given by G-d?

If one believes that Jesus is the messiah, that's okay, even if we don't hold it to be true.

But if one believes Jesus is G-d, then that tends to lean towards idolatry.

Again, not trying to be offensive, it just is what it is.
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#18
Well, but I mean, the accusation of being a pagan, you must admit, cuts a bit more deeply than just having a difference of opinion over the nature of God.

Like, in the instances you brought up with Islam and Mormonism, while I may not believe in the particulars of their respective religions, I still believe that they were inspired by God--that doesn't go away, and I don't think that I would ever suggest that they worship a different God. In fact, I've been invited to Mosques and have prayed the Friday Jumu'ah prayers with my friends when I--as a Christian--was part of the Muslim Students Association in high school. I was never told that I couldn't pray with them and the prayers they pray in Jumu'ah aren't heretical for Christians. I may have a difference of opinion, but I would never say that they don't worship the same God as me--that's, like, a next level kind of statement. I mean . . . you can see that, right?

Like if I accused you of being a pagan idolator . . . like, that's a whopping statement to make. Right?

But you have mentioned something interesting, now: That Christians are idolators in part. I . . . really need to think this over and do some reading on this subject.that,
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#19
Jude,

Thank you for having an open, honest and respectful conversation.

Actually, we don't think of Muslims as idol worshipers because they don't believe in the trinity as Christians do.

Yes, being called a pagan idolator is not pleasant, I understand.

I'm just stating the opinions of some.

I understand because we've been called a few things ourselves, like incomplete Jews.

So no, it doesn't ring well, but when called something, we should look into it to at least see what they are referring to.

And then make an intelligent decision from there.
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#20
(06-10-2019, 09:16 PM)searchinmyroots wrote: Jude,

Thank you for having an open, honest and respectful conversation.

Actually, we don't think of Muslims as idol worshipers because they don't believe in the trinity as Christians do.

Yes, being called a pagan idolator is not pleasant, I understand.

I'm just stating the opinions of some.

I understand because we've been called a few things ourselves, like incomplete Jews.

So no, it doesn't ring well, but when called something, we should look into it to at least see what they are referring to.

And then make an intelligent decision from there.

That's what I'm doing--I have GOT to look into this.
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