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Questions about Jewish belief and the Bible
#21
(06-10-2019, 08:41 PM)Jude86 wrote:
(06-10-2019, 08:30 PM)nili wrote:
(06-10-2019, 08:22 PM)Jude86 wrote: ... Do you speak for all Jews when you say that you believe that we worship a different God, or are you speaking for yourself?

Can I assume that you're not referring to me? I would maintain that Christians have every intention to refer to the same God as that worshipped by Judaism and Islam.

No, sorry, I should have included the person to whom I was referring, my apologies.

And as to your comment . . . I mean, I guess I just took it for granted that we both believed int he same God regardless of the differences of opinion that existed among the way we attempt to approach Him in our thoughts. Maybe it's just the Jewish people whom I've met in person have just been . . . attempting to be polite to me when I've gotten into a theological discussion about God, but this is the first time I've ever encountered this idea that we Christians worship a different God. ...

Not to belabor the point but please note that
  • having every intention to refer to the same God
is not the same as
  • worshipping the same God.

In my opinion much Christianity distorts Jewish scripture to justify deifying a man about whom exceedingly little is known for certain, and does so in the name of replacement theology and with the aid of centuries of antisemitism and pogroms.
To be is to stand for. - Abraham Joshua Heschel
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#22
No, I get it. You don't believe we worship the same God. We Christians are total pagans. I get it.
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#23
This is going nowhere fast!

How I see it -

Christians see the G-d of the Hebrew bible differently than the Jewish people do.

No, we don't think you are pagans as you do worship the G-d of the Hebrew bible as you see Him. The only fine line is when the other 2 parts of the trinity come into play.
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#24
(06-11-2019, 12:51 AM)Jude86 wrote: No, I get it. You don't believe we worship the same God. We Christians are total pagans. I get it.

oy veys mir ,,,
To be is to stand for. - Abraham Joshua Heschel
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#25
(06-11-2019, 02:06 AM)nili wrote:
(06-11-2019, 12:51 AM)Jude86 wrote: No, I get it. You don't believe we worship the same God. We Christians are total pagans. I get it.

oy veys mir ,,,

Sorry, I didn't mean to get terse. I was just at the end of an emotional tether. My apologies.
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#26
(06-10-2019, 08:33 PM)Jude86 wrote: Well, that's comforting. I'm willing to accept that Jews and Christians conceive of the same God differently--but to accept that he's a different God ENTIRELY is heresy and anathema to me and all right-thinking Catholics.

I guess my opinion would be even more than ἀνάθεμα, since I think that every person has his own idiosyncratic concept of deity. I would argue that there are as many gods as there are people, each person conceiving of God in different terms. Since Christians generally believe in a God that exists in three persons, they worship a different generic concept of God than the Jewish generic concept of God, which is absolute unity without "substance vs. person."
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#27
(06-12-2019, 01:50 AM)Jason wrote:
(06-10-2019, 08:33 PM)Jude86 wrote: Well, that's comforting. I'm willing to accept that Jews and Christians conceive of the same God differently--but to accept that he's a different God ENTIRELY is heresy and anathema to me and all right-thinking Catholics.

I guess my opinion would be even more than ἀνάθεμα, since I think that every person has his own idiosyncratic concept of deity. I would argue that there are as many gods as there are people, each person conceiving of God in different terms. Since Christians generally believe in a God that exists in three persons, they worship a different generic concept of God than the Jewish generic concept of God, which is absolute unity without "substance vs. person."

Just wanna add as a tiny thing that that's not really what Catholic Christians exactly believe. I know the substance vs. person thing is a bit . . . choppy, but the Christian concept is one of absolute unity. We (and I mean we Catholics) would say that God is indivisible, that God has no "parts" and that the persons of the Trinity do not constitute a mathematical equation where God is divided into three equal parts. Just wanted to add that on, because the Trinity is a Christian teaching that is so logically incoherent (and intentionally so) that you'll find most Christians will generally ignore the doctrine and simply say that they believe in one God because at base, that's what we believe in: One, indivisible, single God.
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#28
(06-12-2019, 04:29 AM)Jude86 wrote: Just wanna add as a tiny thing that that's not really what Catholic Christians exactly believe. I know the substance vs. person thing is a bit . . . choppy, but the Christian concept is one of absolute unity. We (and I mean we Catholics) would say that God is indivisible, that God has no "parts" and that the persons of the Trinity do not constitute a mathematical equation where God is divided into three equal parts. Just wanted to add that on, because the Trinity is a Christian teaching that is so logically incoherent (and intentionally so) that you'll find most Christians will generally ignore the doctrine and simply say that they believe in one God because at base, that's what we believe in: One, indivisible, single God.

My concern with Christianity is not that their teaching is "so logically incoherent (and intentionally so)," but that it systematically usurped and distorted Jewish scripture in the service of the deification of an individual, while shielding its logically incoherent heresy with the ad hoc theory of dual fulfillment and enlivening its expansion with the tenets of supersessionism on the one hand and the assaults of antisemitism on the other.

Fortunately, we are witnessing signs of change in the wake of increasing interfaith dialogue. Compare, for example, the (infamous) Isaiah 7:14 as found in the KJV with that found in the NRS and the Catholic bible offered by the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops.
To be is to stand for. - Abraham Joshua Heschel
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#29
Yeah, those are all things that we're concerned about. Especially suppressionism which has fortunately been repudiated by the Catholic Chruch (though there's still much work to be done). And I can understand your concern about our of the Tanakh to harm the Jewish people.

Christianity has a lot to answer for when it comes to its treatment of Jewish people as a whole and individually. Trust that I understand that.
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#30
(06-12-2019, 08:38 PM)Jude86 wrote: Yeah, those are all things that we're concerned about. Especially suppressionism which has fortunately been repudiated by the Catholic Chruch (though there's still much work to be done). And I can understand your concern about our of the Tanakh to harm the Jewish people.

Christianity has a lot to answer for when it comes to its treatment of Jewish people as a whole and individually. Trust that I understand that.

@Jude86,

Again, please consider quoting or otherwise indicating the person being addressed. Thanks.
To be is to stand for. - Abraham Joshua Heschel
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