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Judaism: The most powerful reason on why I reject Jesus as messiah
#31
(09-08-2019, 02:24 PM)searchinmyroots wrote: I'm sorry, but you seem to be mixing things together where they do not belong.

Let's take another look -

Genesis 32:31 - And Jacob named the place Peniel, for [he said,] "I saw an angel face to face, and my soul was saved."

No reference to "a right to enter heaven" here.

What kind of "power"? Jacob wrestled with an angel and after the wrestle was glad he survived. It doesn't say anything about "looking at an angel and dying" you made that up.

I guess you don't believe in the whole bible as again, Hosea specifically states Jacob wrestled with an angel, so why should we not believe him?

"I saw an angel face to face,and my soul was saved".I do not deny that Jacob wrestled,he says it himself.But let's look at  the word "saw" and "face to face".Why doesn't Jacob put the emphasis on wrestling? but on seeing an angel "face to face",he is clearly glad that he survived looking at this being,it's almost like he should have died just by looking at it,he is not glad that he won the battle but he is glad his soul was saved despite looking at it face to face,Am I wrong?
"Hosea specifically states Jacob wrestled with an angel" but you said that the word in hebrew in that particular genesis verse is Elohim which means GOD.
Reply
#32
(09-08-2019, 10:47 PM)serviteur wrote:
(09-08-2019, 02:24 PM)searchinmyroots wrote: I'm sorry, but you seem to be mixing things together where they do not belong.

Let's take another look -

Genesis 32:31 - And Jacob named the place Peniel, for [he said,] "I saw an angel face to face, and my soul was saved."

No reference to "a right to enter heaven" here.

What kind of "power"? Jacob wrestled with an angel and after the wrestle was glad he survived. It doesn't say anything about "looking at an angel and dying" you made that up.

I guess you don't believe in the whole bible as again, Hosea specifically states Jacob wrestled with an angel, so why should we not believe him?

"I saw an angel face to face,and my soul was saved".I do not deny that Jacob wrestled,he says it himself.But let's look at  the word "saw" and "face to face".Why doesn't Jacob put the emphasis on wrestling? but on seeing an angel "face to face",he is clearly glad that he survived looking at this being,it's almost like he should have died just by looking at it,he is not glad that he won the battle but he is glad his soul was saved despite looking at it face to face,Am I wrong?
"Hosea specifically states Jacob wrestled with an angel" but you said that the word in hebrew in that particular genesis verse is Elohim which means GOD.

If that is your interpretation of the verse taking it literally and you are happy with it, then stick with it.

I don't think you understand what RabbiO mentioned earlier in the thread.

Here, I'll repeat it -

"Further, Torah uses metaphors and idiomatic phrases. If you and I were to agree on something and I said, "We see eye to eye on that." would it be appropriate for someone to think that we put our eyeballs up against each other?"


When did I say that Elohim means G-D?

How can we have a good debate if you change what was said?


Once again, please read what RabbiO wrote previously -

"The question is, how to translate elohim. Elohim can mean "G-d". It can mean "gods" as when it refers to the deities of other religion. It can mean judges and it can mean angels."



So I look at it this way - If it can mean angel and Hosea says Jacob wrestled with an angel, why should I think otherwise?

Do you not believe Hosea?

It looks like no matter what we say, you are steadfast in your interpretation, so maybe we should just move on.
Reply
#33
(09-09-2019, 03:16 AM)searchinmyroots wrote:
(09-08-2019, 10:47 PM)serviteur wrote:
(09-08-2019, 02:24 PM)searchinmyroots wrote: I'm sorry, but you seem to be mixing things together where they do not belong.

Let's take another look -

Genesis 32:31 - And Jacob named the place Peniel, for [he said,] "I saw an angel face to face, and my soul was saved."

No reference to "a right to enter heaven" here.

What kind of "power"? Jacob wrestled with an angel and after the wrestle was glad he survived. It doesn't say anything about "looking at an angel and dying" you made that up.

I guess you don't believe in the whole bible as again, Hosea specifically states Jacob wrestled with an angel, so why should we not believe him?

"I saw an angel face to face,and my soul was saved".I do not deny that Jacob wrestled,he says it himself.But let's look at  the word "saw" and "face to face".Why doesn't Jacob put the emphasis on wrestling? but on seeing an angel "face to face",he is clearly glad that he survived looking at this being,it's almost like he should have died just by looking at it,he is not glad that he won the battle but he is glad his soul was saved despite looking at it face to face,Am I wrong?
"Hosea specifically states Jacob wrestled with an angel" but you said that the word in hebrew in that particular genesis verse is Elohim which means GOD.

If that is your interpretation of the verse taking it literally and you are happy with it, then stick with it.

I don't think you understand what RabbiO mentioned earlier in the thread.

Here, I'll repeat it -

"Further, Torah uses metaphors and idiomatic phrases. If you and I were to agree on something and I said, "We see eye to eye on that." would it be appropriate for someone to think that we put our eyeballs up against each other?"


When did I say that Elohim means G-D?

How can we have a good debate if you change what was said?


Once again, please read what RabbiO wrote previously -

"The question is, how to translate elohim. Elohim can mean "G-d". It can mean "gods" as when it refers to the deities of other religion. It can mean judges and it can mean angels."



So I look at it this way - If it can mean angel and Hosea says Jacob wrestled with an angel, why should I think otherwise?

Do you not believe Hosea?

It loos like no matter what we say, you are steadfast in your interpretation, so maybe we should just move on. we should move on,obviously we can't agree.One last question and i will be gone forever.Who changed the name
Ok we should move on.One last question and I will be gone forever,you have my word.Who told Jacob to change his name to israel? Who told Abram to change his name to Abraham?
Reply
#34
(09-09-2019, 05:45 PM)serviteur wrote:
(09-09-2019, 03:16 AM)searchinmyroots wrote:
(09-08-2019, 10:47 PM)serviteur wrote:
(09-08-2019, 02:24 PM)searchinmyroots wrote: I'm sorry, but you seem to be mixing things together where they do not belong.

Let's take another look -

Genesis 32:31 - And Jacob named the place Peniel, for [he said,] "I saw an angel face to face, and my soul was saved."

No reference to "a right to enter heaven" here.

What kind of "power"? Jacob wrestled with an angel and after the wrestle was glad he survived. It doesn't say anything about "looking at an angel and dying" you made that up.

I guess you don't believe in the whole bible as again, Hosea specifically states Jacob wrestled with an angel, so why should we not believe him?

"I saw an angel face to face,and my soul was saved".I do not deny that Jacob wrestled,he says it himself.But let's look at  the word "saw" and "face to face".Why doesn't Jacob put the emphasis on wrestling? but on seeing an angel "face to face",he is clearly glad that he survived looking at this being,it's almost like he should have died just by looking at it,he is not glad that he won the battle but he is glad his soul was saved despite looking at it face to face,Am I wrong?
"Hosea specifically states Jacob wrestled with an angel" but you said that the word in hebrew in that particular genesis verse is Elohim which means GOD.

If that is your interpretation of the verse taking it literally and you are happy with it, then stick with it.

I don't think you understand what RabbiO mentioned earlier in the thread.

Here, I'll repeat it -

"Further, Torah uses metaphors and idiomatic phrases. If you and I were to agree on something and I said, "We see eye to eye on that." would it be appropriate for someone to think that we put our eyeballs up against each other?"


When did I say that Elohim means G-D?

How can we have a good debate if you change what was said?


Once again, please read what RabbiO wrote previously -

"The question is, how to translate elohim. Elohim can mean "G-d". It can mean "gods" as when it refers to the deities of other religion. It can mean judges and it can mean angels."



So I look at it this way - If it can mean angel and Hosea says Jacob wrestled with an angel, why should I think otherwise?

Do you not believe Hosea?

It loos like no matter what we say, you are steadfast in your interpretation, so maybe we should just move on. we should move on,obviously we can't agree.One last question and i will be gone forever.Who changed the name
Ok we should move on.One last question and I will be gone forever,you have my word.Who told Jacob to change his name to israel? Who told Abram to change his name to Abraham?

Just because we are moving on from this subject doesn't mean you have to leave forever!

You are welcome here as long as we can have a constructive conversation.

Who told Jacob to change his name to Israel? Let's see what the text says -

27 - And he (the angel) said, "Let me go, for dawn is breaking," but he (Jacob) said, "I will not let you go unless you have blessed me."

28- So he said to him, "What is your name?" and he said, "Jacob."

29-And he said, "Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel, because you have commanding power with [an angel of] God and with men, and you have prevailed."

As for Abraham -

3 - And Abram fell upon his face, and God spoke with him, saying,

4- "As for Me, behold My covenant is with you, and you shall become the father of a multitude of nations.

5- And your name shall no longer be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham, for I have made you the father of a multitude of nations
Reply
#35
(09-09-2019, 07:02 PM)searchinmyroots wrote:
(09-09-2019, 05:45 PM)serviteur wrote:
(09-09-2019, 03:16 AM)searchinmyroots wrote:
(09-08-2019, 10:47 PM)serviteur wrote:
(09-08-2019, 02:24 PM)searchinmyroots wrote: I'm sorry, but you seem to be mixing things together where they do not belong.

Let's take another look -

Genesis 32:31 - And Jacob named the place Peniel, for [he said,] "I saw an angel face to face, and my soul was saved."

No reference to "a right to enter heaven" here.

What kind of "power"? Jacob wrestled with an angel and after the wrestle was glad he survived. It doesn't say anything about "looking at an angel and dying" you made that up.

I guess you don't believe in the whole bible as again, Hosea specifically states Jacob wrestled with an angel, so why should we not believe him?

"I saw an angel face to face,and my soul was saved".I do not deny that Jacob wrestled,he says it himself.But let's look at  the word "saw" and "face to face".Why doesn't Jacob put the emphasis on wrestling? but on seeing an angel "face to face",he is clearly glad that he survived looking at this being,it's almost like he should have died just by looking at it,he is not glad that he won the battle but he is glad his soul was saved despite looking at it face to face,Am I wrong?
"Hosea specifically states Jacob wrestled with an angel" but you said that the word in hebrew in that particular genesis verse is Elohim which means GOD.

If that is your interpretation of the verse taking it literally and you are happy with it, then stick with it.

I don't think you understand what RabbiO mentioned earlier in the thread.

Here, I'll repeat it -

"Further, Torah uses metaphors and idiomatic phrases. If you and I were to agree on something and I said, "We see eye to eye on that." would it be appropriate for someone to think that we put our eyeballs up against each other?"


When did I say that Elohim means G-D?

How can we have a good debate if you change what was said?


Once again, please read what RabbiO wrote previously -

"The question is, how to translate elohim. Elohim can mean "G-d". It can mean "gods" as when it refers to the deities of other religion. It can mean judges and it can mean angels."



So I look at it this way - If it can mean angel and Hosea says Jacob wrestled with an angel, why should I think otherwise?

Do you not believe Hosea?

It loos like no matter what we say, you are steadfast in your interpretation, so maybe we should just move on. we should move on,obviously we can't agree.One last question and i will be gone forever.Who changed the name
Ok we should move on.One last question and I will be gone forever,you have my word.Who told Jacob to change his name to israel? Who told Abram to change his name to Abraham?

Just because we are moving on from this subject doesn't mean you have to leave forever!

You are welcome here as long as we can have a constructive conversation.

Who told Jacob to change his name to Israel? Let's see what the text says -

27 - And he (the angel) said, "Let me go, for dawn is breaking," but he (Jacob) said, "I will not let you go unless you have blessed me."

28- So he said to him, "What is your name?" and he said, "Jacob."

29-And he said, "Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel, because you have commanding power with [an angel of] God and with men, and you have prevailed."

As for Abraham -

3 - And Abram fell upon his face, and God spoke with him, saying,

4- "As for Me, behold My covenant is with you, and you shall become the father of a multitude of nations.

5- And your name shall no longer be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham, for I have made you the father of a multitude of nations

GOD changed Abram name to Abraham,but an "angel" changed Jacob's name?they even put it between parentheses,so strange,so inconsistent,but hey i don't understand  hebrew,what would i know.But hey,i gave you my word.Let me exit the scene.
"But if they had stood in my council, then they would have proclaimed my words to my people" Jeremiah 23:22
Bless  the One who come in the name of the LORD
Reply
#36
Zechariah 8 -

20 - So said the Lord of Hosts: [There will] yet [be a time] that peoples and the inhabitants of many cities shall come.

21 - And the inhabitants of one shall go to another, saying, "Let us go to pray before the Lord and to entreat the Lord of Hosts. I, too, will go."

22- And many peoples and powerful nations shall come to entreat the Lord of Hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray before the Lord.

23- So said the Lord of Hosts: In those days, when ten men of all the languages of the nations shall take hold of the skirt of a Jewish man, saying, "Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you."
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