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Gittin 57a
#1
https://www.sefaria.org/Gittin.57a?lang=bi

Onkelos said to him: What is the punishment of that man, a euphemism for Jesus himself, in the next world? Jesus said to him: He is punished with boiling excrement. As the Master said: Anyone who mocks the words of the Sages will be sentenced to boiling excrement. And this was his sin, as he mocked the words of the Sages.  (read in context)

What is this all about and why is Jesus mentioned?

Thanks.
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#2
(07-04-2020, 02:31 PM)George wrote: What is this all about and why is Jesus mentioned?

Is he? 

There is a reason I ask that.
בקש שלום ורדפהו
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#3
(07-05-2020, 11:39 AM)RabbiO wrote:
(07-04-2020, 02:31 PM)George wrote: What is this all about and why is Jesus mentioned?

Is he? 

There is a reason I ask that.

Yes, Jesus is mentioned.  It looks like it is calling Jesus a false prophet.
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#4
Yehoshua ben Perachiah lived in the latter part of the second century CE. The Talmud teaches that Yeshu ha-Notsri was one of his disciples. That's about 100 to 150 years too early to be a reference to your Jesus.
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#5
(07-05-2020, 07:21 PM)Jason wrote: Yehoshua ben Perachiah lived in the latter part of the second century CE. The Talmud teaches that Yeshu ha-Notsri was one of his disciples. That's about 100 to 150 years too early to be a reference to your Jesus.

I don't think Christians really know about that or if they even care.

All they seem to care about is when they see the name they are looking for, it must be proof of something!


It's like reading the headlines without knowing the rest of the story.

But that doesn't surprise me at all.
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#6
Anyone interested in exploring one critical scholar's approach to this question might benefit from reading these two books:
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#7
(07-05-2020, 07:21 PM)Jason wrote: Yehoshua ben Perachiah lived in the latter part of the second century CE. The Talmud teaches that Yeshu ha-Notsri was one of his disciples. That's about 100 to 150 years too early to be a reference to your Jesus.

I looked up Joshua ben Perachya and this is what I found:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joshua_ben_Perachiah

Clip:  Further information: Jesus in the Talmud

In another tradition he is also the teacher of Yeshu (in some manuscripts of the Talmud), where he and Yeshu flee to Egypt. In other manuscripts his student is Judah ben Tabbai. The account as it appears in the Talmud is as follows:

Quote:What was the incident with R. Joshua b. Perahiah? — When King Jannaeus put the Rabbis to death, Simeon b. Shetah was hid by his sister, whilst R. Joshua b. Perahiah fled to Alexandria in Egypt. When there was peace, Simeon b. Shetah sent [this message to him]: 'From me, Jerusalem, the Holy city, to thee Alexandria in Egypt. O my sister, my husband25 dwelleth in thy midst and I abide desolate'. [R. Joshua] arose and came back and found himself in a certain inn where they paid him great respect. He said: 'How beautiful is this 'aksania'! Yeshu said to him, 'My master, her eyes are narrow!' He replied to him, 'Wicked person! Is it with such thoughts that thou occupiest thyself!' He sent forth four hundred horns and excommunicated him. [The disciple] came before him on many occasions, saying'Receive me'; but he refused to notice him. One day while [R. Joshua] was reciting the Shema', he came before him. His intention was to receive him and he made a sign to him with his hand, but the disciple thought he was repelling him. So he went and set up a brick and worshipped it. [R. Joshua] said to him, 'Repent'; but he answered him, 'Thus have I received from thee that whoever sinned and caused others to sin is deprived of the power of doing penitence'. A Master has said: The disciple practised magic and led Israel astray.[13]
Dunn (1992) considers this to be a story of Jesus from the late Amoraic period, which contains old polemical elements that were already current in New Testament times.[14] His story is parallel to that of Elisha and Gehazi.[15] Gustaf DalmanJoachim Jeremias (1935, 1960),[16] and others[17] do not consider the Yeshu mentioned as Joshua's pupil to be Jesus.
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#8
In other words, some people think they are references to Jesus (your Jesus). Others disagree. I happen to think that your Jesus (who is a complete myth) was based on several background concepts:

(1) The actual Yeshu ha-Notzri, who lived a century earlier than Jesus was supposed to have lived, was a famous personality and may have begun a community of believers who followed his teachings. This could actually be the original person upon whom the myth was based.

(2) The idea of itinerant preachers making their rounds in the land of Israel during the Second Temple period.

(3) The development of angel and demon theology in Second Temple Judaism and its concomitant cosmogony and cosmology.

(4) Syncretism of Jewish concepts with Greek-style mystery religions.

All of these things together formed the mixture from which Christianity emerged. It was helpful that people like Philo had developed the idea of the Logos being the heavenly high priest and making a connection between the Logos and Yeshua from the book of Zechariah (through the Branch prophecy). It is so easy to see how Christianity could develop from these pieces of historical accident without a real Jesus at all.

Again, I recommend that people read and argue against On the Historicity of Jesus by Richard Carrier. The argument is strong.
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