Mock Trial of Joseph's Brothers

[Dana]

That was interesting listening to the perspective from the brother's side by defense, although, I thought his interpretation of Joseph's experience was somewhat cavalier. Also interesting was to witness a trial of an ancient time in the modern era.
I watched a few times and changed my mind more than once and landed on the verdict that was given. Guilty only on the charge of kidnapping. Nice share SMR!

I remember while attending a non-denominational Christian church, flaws of the biblical characters were spoken of so as to highlight the mercy of G-d, such as with David.
A testimony to Joseph's ability for forgiveness was his faith in G-d at the end of the story he tells the brothers how they meant it for evil but G-d meant it for good.



I don't believe the fundamentalist personality is exclusive to Christianity. Fundamentalism runs in other religions. There are fundamentalist atheists as well that would like to force their conscience by imposing various punishments against dissenters.

Oh Dana, thank you so much for your words! you relax the scene!

I think behind a rigid religious or atheist attitude there is often fear - and a judgmental spirit.

To the video: I thought it was funny that the lawyer said the brothers acted in self-defense. I want him when I'm in trouble.

You're welcome Blue Bird!  Good humor with the lawyer protecting the brothers!  Younger siblings can be little tyrants.  I want that lawyer too when I'm in trouble.

[searchinmyroots]

Thanks for everyone's comments!

I too am on the side of the jury, with only 1 guilty verdict.

What is very interesting to me, and this was part of my Parsha reading from one of Rabbi Fohrman's books, is who actually sold Joseph.

Isn't it very odd the way one verse is sort of glaring, seeming a bit out of place -

Genesis 37:28


Then Midianite men, merchants, passed by, and they pulled and lifted Joseph from the pit, and they sold Joseph to the Ishmaelites for twenty silver [pieces], and they brought Joseph to Egypt.

So Joseph's brothers really didn't sell him into slavery, did they?

They were thinking of selling him to the Ishmaelites but never did. And Reuven was heart wrenched when he saw Joseph was gone.

[Blue Bird]

Thanks for everyone's comments!

I too am on the side of the jury, with only 1 guilty verdict.

What is very interesting to me, and this was part of my Parsha reading from one of Rabbi Fohrman's books, is who actually sold Joseph.

Isn't it very odd the way one verse is sort of glaring, seeming a bit out of place -

Genesis 37:28


Then Midianite men, merchants, passed by, and they pulled and lifted Joseph from the pit, and they sold Joseph to the Ishmaelites for twenty silver [pieces], and they brought Joseph to Egypt.

So Joseph's brothers really didn't sell him into slavery, did they?

They were thinking of selling him to the Ishmaelites but never did. And Reuven was heart wrenched when he saw Joseph was gone.

The verse before, vers 27, mentions his brothers: "his brothers listened". So, the question is who is "they" in verse 28? It could be the Midianite men or Josephs brothers. Because his brothers talked about selling him before, I would guess that "they" refers to the brothers.

[searchinmyroots]

Thanks for everyone's comments!

I too am on the side of the jury, with only 1 guilty verdict.

What is very interesting to me, and this was part of my Parsha reading from one of Rabbi Fohrman's books, is who actually sold Joseph.

Isn't it very odd the way one verse is sort of glaring, seeming a bit out of place -

Genesis 37:28


Then Midianite men, merchants, passed by, and they pulled and lifted Joseph from the pit, and they sold Joseph to the Ishmaelites for twenty silver [pieces], and they brought Joseph to Egypt.

So Joseph's brothers really didn't sell him into slavery, did they?

They were thinking of selling him to the Ishmaelites but never did. And Reuven was heart wrenched when he saw Joseph was gone.

The verse before, vers 27, mentions his brothers: "his brothers listened". So, the question is who is "they" in verse 28? It could be the Midianite men or Josephs brothers. Because his brothers talked about selling him before, I would guess that "they" refers to the brothers.

That's where the mystery remains!

Here are the verses -

26 - And Judah said to his brothers, "What is the gain if we slay our brother and cover up his blood?

27 - Come, let us sell him to the Ishmaelites, but our hand shall not be upon him, for he is our brother, our flesh." And his brothers hearkened. 

So yes, Judah made another suggestion, changing again what to do with Joseph and the brothers listened (as you mentioned). They now were contemplating selling Joseph to the Ishmaelites.

Then, all of a sudden out of nowhere, some Midianites popped up and someone took Joseph out of the pit and sold him.

28 - Then Midianite men, merchants, passed by, and they pulled and lifted Joseph from the pit, and they sold Joseph to the Ishmaelites for twenty silver [pieces], and they brought Joseph to Egypt.

This seems to be a surprise to Reuben as verse 29 states -

29 - And Reuben returned to the pit, and behold, Joseph was not in the pit; so he rent his garments.
 
30 - And he returned to his brothers and said, "The boy is gone! And I where will I go?"

So why would the brothers "return" to the pit if they were the ones who pulled Joseph from it and sold him? Why would they be surprised he wasn't there?

[Blue Bird]

That's where the mystery remains!

Here are the verses -

26 - And Judah said to his brothers, "What is the gain if we slay our brother and cover up his blood?

27 - Come, let us sell him to the Ishmaelites, but our hand shall not be upon him, for he is our brother, our flesh." And his brothers hearkened. 

So yes, Judah made another suggestion, changing again what to do with Joseph and the brothers listened (as you mentioned). They now were contemplating selling Joseph to the Ishmaelites.

Then, all of a sudden out of nowhere, some Midianites popped up and someone took Joseph out of the pit and sold him.

28 - Then Midianite men, merchants, passed by, and they pulled and lifted Joseph from the pit, and they sold Joseph to the Ishmaelites for twenty silver [pieces], and they brought Joseph to Egypt.

This seems to be a surprise to Reuben as verse 29 states -

29 - And Reuben returned to the pit, and behold, Joseph was not in the pit; so he rent his garments.
 
30 - And he returned to his brothers and said, "The boy is gone! And I where will I go?"

So why would the brothers "return" to the pit if they were the ones who pulled Joseph from it and sold him? Why would they be surprised he wasn't there?

This story seems pretty complicated with many possible scripts for a documentary film.

The story in my imagination could go like this:


Reuben did not go with his brothers when they were carrying Joseph away to throw him into the pit because he did not agree with their plans. He couldn't see what they were doing because there was a hill between them (no proof of this, but how could it be otherwise that they could see Joseph coming from afar (v. 18) and later Reuben did not notice what was happening at the pit?).

The rest of the brothers took Joseph. He was already 17 years old and I'm sure, he resisted with all his strengh. That fight made the brothers hungry. They left Josef in the hole because they thought he couldn't escape there.

But, really, I can't believe that the caravan stole Joseph from the pit. Think of all the noise the animals, the traders, and the protesting Joseph would have made. And if you see a single boy from a distance, you can see a large caravan from afar, especially when approaching the pit their little brother was in.

I think the Midianites and the Ishmaelites were basically the same people and as honest traders they didn’t steal Joseph, they bought him. Reuben really couln't see or hear what was going on because he was behind that mountain.

Thank you for posting this video and your thoughts, it tells an old story in a refreshing and challenging way.

I found this - it opens up even more options!

https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/q...midianites

[Dana]

What we are not told of in the Text, the Torah alone, is that the pit had scorpions and snakes, including Joseph being near starvation by the time the Midianites pulled him from the pit.  I think prosecution said these accounts are in the Midrash.  Given that extra knowledge I would also include attempted murder with kidnapping charges for the brothers while excluding Reuben.

Another thing is the Hebrew word for (See- and - Raising their eyes) can mean more than just literally seeing. They percieved knowing the trade and travel habits of the Ishmaelites would be arriving from Gilead.  

Nine older brothers subdueing a 17 year old would not take much effort to toss him in a pit,  I would imagine.

Verse 36 - There is a third tribe said to have sold him to Egypt, and that is the Medanites.  There was Midian and Ishmael both sons of Abraham.  (Gen. 25) - Abraham had a wife named Keturah who bore him 6 sons. ואת-מדן ואת-מדין

Both Medan and Midian are listed with the other sons,  so I don't think Medan is a variant of the Midianites.

(I'm out of practice with typing Hebrew and typing vowels).

Prior to watching the court scene I thought it was Joseph brothers that did the selling but the Torah does not say that.

[searchinmyroots]

That's where the mystery remains!

Here are the verses -

26 - And Judah said to his brothers, "What is the gain if we slay our brother and cover up his blood?

27 - Come, let us sell him to the Ishmaelites, but our hand shall not be upon him, for he is our brother, our flesh." And his brothers hearkened. 

So yes, Judah made another suggestion, changing again what to do with Joseph and the brothers listened (as you mentioned). They now were contemplating selling Joseph to the Ishmaelites.

Then, all of a sudden out of nowhere, some Midianites popped up and someone took Joseph out of the pit and sold him.

28 - Then Midianite men, merchants, passed by, and they pulled and lifted Joseph from the pit, and they sold Joseph to the Ishmaelites for twenty silver [pieces], and they brought Joseph to Egypt.

This seems to be a surprise to Reuben as verse 29 states -

29 - And Reuben returned to the pit, and behold, Joseph was not in the pit; so he rent his garments.
 
30 - And he returned to his brothers and said, "The boy is gone! And I where will I go?"

So why would the brothers "return" to the pit if they were the ones who pulled Joseph from it and sold him? Why would they be surprised he wasn't there?

This story seems pretty complicated with many possible scripts for a documentary film.

The story in my imagination could go like this:


Reuben did not go with his brothers when they were carrying Joseph away to throw him into the pit because he did not agree with their plans. He couldn't see what they were doing because there was a hill between them (no proof of this, but how could it be otherwise that they could see Joseph coming from afar (v. 18) and later Reuben did not notice what was happening at the pit?).

The rest of the brothers took Joseph. He was already 17 years old and I'm sure, he resisted with all his strengh. That fight made the brothers hungry. They left Josef in the hole because they thought he couldn't escape there.

But, really, I can't believe that the caravan stole Joseph from the pit. Think of all the noise the animals, the traders, and the protesting Joseph would have made. And if you see a single boy from a distance, you can see a large caravan from afar, especially when approaching the pit their little brother was in.

I think the Midianites and the Ishmaelites were basically the same people and as honest traders they didn’t steal Joseph, they bought him. Reuben really couln't see or hear what was going on because he was behind that mountain.

Thank you for posting this video and your thoughts, it tells an old story in a refreshing and challenging way.

I found this - it opens up even more options!

https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/q...midianites

Thanks for the link Bluebird. Looks like approach C is the one which is in line with Joseph's brothers being innocent of selling him.

So yes, as is true in Judaism, we see there may be many views and angles in the way things can be read and understood. That is the beauty of it, not that any are wrong, just different thoughts to ponder!

Just one more point to add on the "C" approach -

Later on when the brothers meet Joseph in Egypt we see they admit their guilt in Chapter 42 verse 21 -

"And they said to one another, "Indeed, we are guilty for our brother, that we witnessed the distress of his soul when he begged us, and we did not listen. That is why this trouble has come upon us."

But what are they admitting they are guilty of? They don't mention being guilty of selling Joseph, they say they are guilty of not listening to his cries for help, allegedly when he was thrown in the pit.

Rabbi Fohrman concludes with this -

We see the brothers shifted plans

A - Murder him and cast him in the pit
B- Cast him in the pit and leave him there
C - Don't kill him or leave him in the pit, sell him to the Ishmaelites

As time went on the plans kept getting less brutal and there is even some sympathy for him as noted in after plan C in verse 27 -

Come, let us sell him to the Ishmaelites, but our hand shall not be upon him, for he is our brother, our flesh."

Rabbi Forhman mentions there may be 2 systems of thought, 1 being fast and intuitive, easily swayed by emotions and 2, slow and deliberate, more logical.

The problem is time. We may start with the 1st system of thought and then as time goes on lean more or go 100% towards the 2nd thought process, but there is the scarcity of time.

If we do not act quick enough, we may not have the time to do what may be more logical.

[Blue Bird]

Rabbi Forhman mentions there may be 2 systems of thought, 1 being fast and intuitive, easily swayed by emotions and 2, slow and deliberate, more logical.

The problem is time. We may start with the 1st system of thought and then as time goes on lean more or go 100% towards the 2nd thought process, but there is the scarcity of time.

If we do not act quick enough, we may not have the time to do what may be more logical.

I agree, the best reaction doesn't come automatically. We can learn to be extra careful when emotions run high. It means artificially inserting time between the  emotional reaction inside and our actions.

Depending on your personality, this could mean going for a walk, sleeping a night, drinking a coffee until you are calm and open to further information that could lead to a more appropriate reaction.

[Dana]

Hi SMR.

I'm looking through Rabbi Fohrman's book The Exodus You Almost Passed Over. It picks up only portions of the Joseph story in his younger years towards the back.   Did he write another book you may be looking at?

[searchinmyroots]

Hi SMR.

I'm looking through Rabbi Fohrman's book The Exodus You Almost Passed Over. It picks up only portions of the Joseph story in his younger years towards the back.   Did he write another book you may be looking at?

YES!!

He has 2 newer books out -

https://www.amazon.com/Genesis-Parsha-Co...5O3HFRSSY0&keywords=rabbi+fohrman&qid=1638370747&qsid=146-6020778-3694524&s=books&sprefix=rabbi+fo%2Caps%2C186&sr=1-1&sres=1592645445%2C1592645674%2C0997347600%2CB004O4BZDY%2CB0064TJ4US%2C9655240274%2C1592645690%2C1637580703%2C1492294462%2C1947857460%2C1602804567%2CB08ZW6NBPD%2C0827613008%2C0827612710%2C1612616445%2C1592643663&srpt=ABIS_BOOK


https://www.amazon.com/Exodus-Parsha-Com...5O3HFRSSY0&keywords=rabbi+fohrman&qid=1638370823&qsid=146-6020778-3694524&s=books&sprefix=rabbi+fo%2Caps%2C186&sr=1-2&sres=1592645445%2C1592645674%2C0997347600%2CB004O4BZDY%2CB0064TJ4US%2C9655240274%2C1592645690%2C1637580703%2C1492294462%2C1947857460%2C1602804567%2CB08ZW6NBPD%2C0827613008%2C0827612710%2C1612616445%2C1592643663&srpt=ABIS_BOOK

And if I'm not mistaken, another on the way!

I'm guessing he will have one for each of the 5 books of Moses.