Judaism - Choosing to be childless

[Chavak]

My concern lies with children who do not ask to be born.

I've never understood that argument. No one gets to ask to be born.  But as an interesting side note, I saw this on the news today.  Somehow I think the backers of it are very happy that they were born. 

https://www.wweek.com/news/2022/02/16/wh...ving-kids/

[Alan_Boskov]

The site has been pulled, within the last half hour    :

   

[Chavak]

The site has been pulled, within the last half hour    :

I just clicked on the link and it worked.

[searchinmyroots]

Works for me as well!

[Alan_Boskov]

Today, it's showing up for me also. Around that time, my internet went out and I had to connect my ethernet through a USB adapter. After summoning an update, I was able to resume internet service through the computer's ethernet port, once again. Yesterday, my otherwise reliable printer stopped printing. I wish I had Windows 2000, once again.

https://www.wweek.com/news/2022/02/16/wh...ving-kids/
...“A Lot of Humans Wish They Had Never Been Born.”...

If I've never known anything else other than Portland Oregan, I might tend to think likewise.

[Dana]

My concern lies with children who do not ask to be born.

I've never understood that argument. No one gets to ask to be born.  But as an interesting side note, I saw this on the news today.  Somehow I think the backers of it are very happy that they were born. 

https://www.wweek.com/news/2022/02/16/wh...ving-kids/

That is an interesting site and I would agree with some things that raise awareness such as... Stop Having Kids -  defines antinatalism as “a philosophical and ethical stance against human reproduction” and says antinatalists consider human reproduction to be “an irreversible, unnecessary, indefensible, and enduring form of harm, regardless of circumstances, situations, or consciousness in living.”  Especially the part in bold.  

The group says it wants to inspire and provoke critical thinking about reproductive choices and is against forcing individuals to do anything either way.



I learned there was a debate on this subject between the two famous rabbinic schools - House of Hillel and House of Shammai that lasted two and a half years. The Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Eruvin 13b. The issue was settled in favor of the House of Shammai that it would have been better had humans not been created. 

This link, fairly recent,  discusses that debate and concludes that it was best we humans are here, and created to do good.  What would Shammai have thought about antinatalism and could he have argued for it?  Mostly, did Hillel and Shammai agree to disagree or did their long debate end with Hillel agreeing that Shammai was right?  I feel it is amazing they could have this kind of discussion back then and no one was ex communicated for being a heretic of a sort. 

https://timemphis.org/what-comes-next-by...b-wohlner/

[Dana]

Why do you think there will be inevitable suffering from coming into being? I realize this might be the case in some instances but in others I don't think they see the suffering as much or at least they look at it a different way.

I think the years 2020-2022 have been transitional years for me.  I've given consideration to the philosophy of Antinatalism.  Much reading and time has been spent thinking about it.  

It is true, faith in G-d helps anchor us by providing meaning and purpose, giving us endurance during the rough times.  The inspiration of believing in immortality shields us from viewing reality full on, and with our innate optimistic bias the glass appears half full so we can better be able to look on the bright side.  

Covid, wars, disease, automobile accidents, job loss, homelessness and loss of loveed ones are only a few forms of suffering while mentally, many cope with anxiety and stress using alcohol and drugs.  Not everyone will go through all of these equally but in the aggregate most will in one form or another.  

I won't encourage my own grandkids to have children which is a break from my usual way of thinking towards faith and a positive outlook.  Although if they choose too I'll be supportive.  

Ethics matter and for me I've found Jewish ethics to be one of the finest, as a higher standard of behaving.  Procreation however, (in my book) is immoral and I don't believe this to be in conflict.  

Understanding evolution a little better has made me realize more compassion for people as well as the lower animals.  We have similar drives but the animals just can't contemplate their experiences. Nature drives them.  Veganism is now a very real lifestyle I'm working towards.  

I took 'forever' to answer your question Searching because it is not an easy one to answer.  Nonetheless, very relevant.  

Thank you.

[searchinmyroots]

Why do you think there will be inevitable suffering from coming into being? I realize this might be the case in some instances but in others I don't think they see the suffering as much or at least they look at it a different way.

I think the years 2020-2022 have been transitional years for me.  I've given consideration to the philosophy of Antinatalism.  Much reading and time has been spent thinking about it.  

It is true, faith in G-d helps anchor us by providing meaning and purpose, giving us endurance during the rough times.  The inspiration of believing in immortality shields us from viewing reality full on, and with our innate optimistic bias the glass appears half full so we can better be able to look on the bright side.  

Covid, wars, disease, automobile accidents, job loss, homelessness and loss of loveed ones are only a few forms of suffering while mentally, many cope with anxiety and stress using alcohol and drugs.  Not everyone will go through all of these equally but in the aggregate most will in one form or another.  

I won't encourage my own grandkids to have children which is a break from my usual way of thinking towards faith and a positive outlook.  Although if they choose too I'll be supportive.  

Ethics matter and for me I've found Jewish ethics to be one of the finest, as a higher standard of behaving.  Procreation however, (in my book) is immoral and I don't believe this to be in conflict.  

Understanding evolution a little better has made me realize more compassion for people as well as the lower animals.  We have similar drives but the animals just can't contemplate their experiences. Nature drives them.  Veganism is now a very real lifestyle I'm working towards.  

I took 'forever' to answer your question Searching because it is not an easy one to answer.  Nonetheless, very relevant.  

Thank you.

Thank you very much for your reply Dana. Never too late as this isn't an easy topic!

So yes, having something to believe in can give some people meaning, purpose and a way to get through the hard times. And we all could use some of that in my opinion.

And yes, many of the sufferings you listed all of us will go thorough at one time or another in our lives. It isn't anything new just the same thing in different forms at different times (instead of Covid there were much worse things out there like the Black Plague for instance and wars have been going on for who knows how long).

But I see a pattern of renewal, where people get "through" it one way or another, build and move forward. No, not all will and yes many will suffer.

I think that is something that is "built" into us naturally if we choose to use it. We find ways to overcome, to move on, to adapt and deal with the negatives that are thrown at us.

To me, and I know this may sound biblical, life is built on love. Love of ourselves, love of others, love of the animals, love of the planet and of everything that was created. We need to lookout for others whether it be people or things. We need to share our individual strengths to help with our weaknesses. We need to love our surroundings and see the beauty of it all and be in awe of it.

Life has drastically changed not just over the last 2 years but also in my opinion more so in the last 100. We have made great strides in adding years to our lives, but we may be missing what I believe to be another important part - Adding life to our years.

Again, these are all just my thoughts and I know and realize every person has their own way of thinking about life and what it means and has to offer.

I think there is a lot of goodness and things to fulfill our lives out there, we just need to make the most of it all.

So how does this fit in with the topic of bringing children into this world?

I believe it is a natural order, that it is meant to be. Things will happen that we will not like and can find no reason as to "why". But that to me is also part of the natural order, that things have to happen in order to move on. A forest must burn its overload of debris in order to bring new life. And as hard as that may seem, especially in relation to people, for some reason it needs to be done.

Bringing children into this world is a personal choice. A choice that will probably depend on how one see's things and how they think their children can survive.

It's definitely not an easy decision.

We can talk about veganism as well! As you may or may not know, I've been plant based for over 10 years now, mostly for health reasons but I've come to realize it is a win for the animals and the planet as well!

Thanks for the conversation Dana!

[Dana]

I so appreciate and enjoyed reading your thoughtful response for what is definitely not an easy topic. 

Searchin,  I have memories about a plant-based diet, one of the many discussions on this forum in the past.  So yes, a vague memory. 

Just want to say thank you as well, good food for thought.