The original sin

[Peergint]

Thank you for all your input! Great coincidence with that video, searchinmyroots, thanks for linking to it! 

From my side, it's ok to have your opinion here, too, Peergint (since you made clear that you're not going to try to proselytize)! But I'd mainly like to find out if there is anything else in the Hebrew Bible that refers to that original sin situation. If we compare it to the view in Christianity, let's just point out that it's the Christian view. 


I am really coming from the opposite direction than you, though: I cannot understand how Christians jump to the conclusion that Jesus is not "just" a great guy who had a historical impact, but in fact g-ds son, on one level with g-d. 

To clarify where I'm coming from - I had a culturally Christian upbringing, with compulsory religion as a subject at school, church groups, spent a few years at a Christian school, and studied the historical Jesus for one subject of my finals back then. I am not Christian, however, but would like to convert to Judaism. So this is where I am coming from. Having Jesus in the equation was normal for me because that was the narrative I grew up with, even though no one in my family was religious. It is just SO normal to celebrate Christmas and Easter, our society builds around it. But I never realized the apparently HUGE role the original sin plays in Christianity until my neighbor pointed it out. My point of view is that a lot of people who are "habitual" Christians do not know this. In fact, I just had a call with my mother who didn't know that and was similarly shocked. But it makes sense for the answer to "why one needs to accept Jesus" - Christianity claims that Jesus died for our sins and you need to accept Jesus in order to be redeemed from that original sin that we apparently all inherited. Is that correct, regarding the Christian interpretation? 

8:21 - And the Lord smelled the pleasant aroma, and the Lord said to Himself, "I will no longer curse the earth because of man, for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth, and I will no longer smite all living things as I have done.

@searchinmyroots, What is the context for that verse? It sounds like a shift in view, so there was cursing and smiting going on before that - due to which reason? 

I know (not in detail) about the stories of Sodom & Gomorrha and the flood, but I understood it as consequences to very tangible and manifest sins, with lots of opportunity to save yourself and/or better the (very real) behavior (that you yourself decided to cause).  This is a theme that I find  throughout what I have learned about Judaism so far - basically g-d reminding you that you have the tools to be decent, so please do so (or occasionally suffer the consequences). Are there any passages where g-d punishes for anything other than actual wrongdoings? 

I would ask her if she knows the Hebrew bible says we can rule over sin.

And ask her why G-d and the prophets told us many times in many places of ways to be forgiven, without any sacrifices.

She cited multiple verses of how in Judaism sacrifices are still a thing. The passage you linked to suggests it is a misconception. It seems that there is that distinction between sacrifices for your current wrongdoings and for some general assumed apparently inherent evilness, which I now understand does not exist in Judaism. 

That's not it at all. What it means is that because of Adam and Eve's sin, death entered the world. Before then they had eternal life. Because of the original sin, and we are all descendants from Adam, his sin affects us all. Children don't sin, but because they're human like we are, they will sin at some point because none of us are perfect.

Peergint, Ok, I am with you so far. But if that's the interpretation, why do we still need Jesus as redeemer of said sin? Why not cut out the middle man and make it just about g-d and the person? And if Adam's sin means we are all going to die (but weren't before), how do we connect that to sinning in general? What is that redemption that only Jesus can achieve? And why can people not do that themselves? 


I agree that the idea of being born a "sinner" is off-putting. I am not sure if it doesn't mean the same thing, though (the inclination of sinning, which indeed seems to be a human trait, just like children need to be taught ethics and responsible behavior or might end up hurting others if let run wild, versus some inherited guilt). It seems so destructive and seems to have led to progressively more authoritarian theological beliefs with each new "iteration".

On a personal level, Judaism seems so much more life affirming, affirming that people are humans and can fail, but always can better themselves, and  that it just depends on their efforts, which are seen by g-d.

Hi a_Sarah, 
You said, "But it makes sense for the answer to "why one needs to accept Jesus" - Christianity claims that Jesus died for our sins and you only need to accept Jesus in order to be redeemed from original sin that we apparently all inherited. Is that correct, regarding the Christian interpretation?"
Not quite. We, Christians, believe that Jesus died to redeem us from all sin, past, present and future. You don't have to "do" anything to receive salvation. You only need to believe.

You quote Genesis 8:21. God said He will not smite the earth with flooding again. He had punished man for his sin by the flood where only Noah and his family were saved by building an ark as God had directed him. This has to do with sin, not the original sin. Man had become very sinful, rather as we have become today.

Your next statement says: I know (not in detail) about the stories of Sodom & Gomorrha and the flood, but I understood it as consequences to very tangible and manifest sins, with lots of opportunity to save yourself and/or better the (very real) behavior (that you yourself decided to cause).  This is a theme that I find  throughout what I have learned about Judaism so far - basically g-d reminding you that you have the tools to be decent, so please do so (or occasionally suffer the consequences). Are there any passages where g-d punishes for anything other than actual wrongdoings? 

This suggests that we can save ourselves, (Moderators Add - According to Christianity) which we cannot and that we have to do something, as in works not faith. God always chastised the Israelites. They had been rescued from the Egyptians and were promised a land of milk and honey, but on the way there they sinned. When Moses went up the mountain to get the 10 commandments from God, Aaron made a golden calf for them to worship, instead of the one true God. After they sent 10 scouts into Canaan, 8 came back and said that they could not enter because the people there were giants. So they didn't go and God made them travel in the wilderness for 40 years as punishment for their unbelief. God doesn't punish for doing nothing wrong.

Regarding your comments about a redeemer. We believe that God sent His one and only begotten Son that whoever would believe in Him would have eternal life. The parable about the vineyard owner in the New Testament helps explain a little more. Luke 20:9-15. When the Israelites were in bondage in Egypt, they were told by Moses that God was going to free them and that they must observe the passover when the Lord visited all the firstborn of the land in the tenth plague and everyone had to sprinkle the blood of the lambs on the doorposts. This meant that God would not touch the firstborn in those homes. We believe Jesus is the passover Lamb for all people. In other words no other sacrifice is necessary because He took the punishment for our sins upon Himself. (Moderator Note - What does the Passover Lamb have to do with sin?)

Regarding the original sin and subsequent sin. God knew that man could not keep His commandments. So He made a covenant with I believe Jacob, whereby an animal was cut in two but before Jacob could walk through the two halves to initiate the covenant God caused him to fall into a sleep. Then God Himself walked through the two halves. This meant that God made the covenant, but Jacob didn't. (Moderator Note - Can you please show us a reference to this in the Hebrew bible?)Therefore to free us from sin, God kept His covenant with us by sending His Son to be our sacrifice, knowing if He hadn't not one person would be saved as we have all sinned. God, being just and the only one who can just because He alone is perfect, He requires a sacrifice. (Moderator Note - This is based on Christian theology and is not consistent with what G-d teaches in the Hebrew bible)

The law convicts us all, but because of Jesus and the grace of God, we are not under the law but under grace. (Moderator Note - Again, this is Christian theology and has no basis in the Hebrew bible)

I have explained from what Christians believe in answer to your questions and I am more than happy to answer as best I can any other questions, but I am conscious that this is a Jewish website promoting Judaism and not Christianity.

a_Sarah,
As my posts are edited or deleted I am obviously breaking the very stringent of rules of this forum.
It's up to the moderator/s but it simply closes down discussion.
I would be happy to discuss anything elsewhere if you wish. If not that's fine too.

This suggests that we can save ourselves, ([b]Moderators Add - According to Christianity) [/b]Can I ask then, do you believe you can save yourselves?

What does the Passover Lamb have to do with sin?
Exodus 12:5. Your lamb shall be without blemish... In Christianity this means without sin.

Then God Himself walked through the two halves. This meant that God made the covenant, but Jacob didn't. (Moderator Note - Can you please show us a reference to this in the Hebrew bible?) My mistake, this was Abram. Genesis 15:17-18. Now it came to pass that the sun had set, and it was dark, and behold, a smoking furnace and a fire brand, which passed between these parts. יזוַיְהִ֤י הַשֶּׁ֨מֶשׁ֙ בָּ֔אָה וַֽעֲלָטָ֖ה הָיָ֑ה וְהִנֵּ֨ה תַנּ֤וּר עָשָׁן֙ וְלַפִּ֣יד אֵ֔שׁ אֲשֶׁ֣ר עָבַ֔ר בֵּ֖ין הַגְּזָרִ֥ים הָאֵֽלֶּה:
On that day, the Lord formed a covenant with Abram, saying, "To your seed I have given this land, from the river of Egypt until the great river, the Euphrates river. יחבַּיּ֣וֹם הַה֗וּא כָּרַ֧ת יְהֹוָ֛ה אֶת־אַבְרָ֖ם בְּרִ֣ית לֵאמֹ֑ר לְזַרְעֲךָ֗ נָתַ֨תִּי֙ אֶת־הָאָ֣רֶץ הַזֹּ֔את מִנְּהַ֣ר מִצְרַ֔יִם עַד־הַנָּהָ֥ר הַגָּדֹ֖ל נְהַר־פְּרָֽת:
The firebrand was God. God also appeared to Moses as fire in the burning bush. Only God made the journey in the symbols of smoke and fire thus forming the lasting covenant between Himself and Abram (Abraham)

Therefore to free us from sin, God kept His covenant with us by sending His Son to be our sacrifice, knowing if He hadn't not one person would be saved as we have all sinned. God, being just and the only one who can just because He alone is perfect, He requires a sacrifice. (Moderator Note - This is based on Christian theology and is not consistent with what G-d teaches in the Hebrew bible) Please show me what the Hebrew Bible teaches.

The law convicts us all, but because of Jesus and the grace of God, we are not under the law but under grace. (Moderator Note - Again, this is Christian theology and has no basis in the Hebrew bible) Does the Hebrew Bible teach anything about grace or does it only speak of the law?