(07-02-2020, 11:23 PM)Ismq Wrote: The verse 12 points clearly to jesus: “...... because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.” you asked if jesus had many deaths,here it refers to his death.and also answer your question about sacrifice for the sins.
It's quite obvious you have no regard for what I wrote.
I'll repeat the most important part for you -
You cannot take a line here and there and understand the content unless you read and understand the whole of what is written.
So even if this one verse seems to speak of Jesus, what about verse 10 that says the servant was guilty of sin?
You said verse 12 speaks of Jesus death. Well in the same chapter, verse 9, it speaks about the servants deaths, in plural.
Did Jesus die many times?
You can't have it both ways, either all of Isaiah 53 speaks about Jesus or it isn't about Jesus.
You didn't address my other questions, you conveniently passed them over.
What about Isaiah 52 and 54, what do they say about the servant?
We cannot have a meaningful discussion if you just want to look at a verse or two that seems to speak about Jesus.
07-03-2020, 02:53 AM (This post was last modified: 07-03-2020, 02:54 AM by Ismq.)
In the hebrew bible not appears "guilty of sin"but "he made him ill".you want that the prophecies be very literal.and about "deaths"in the plural the original language is so big and so cosmic it's hard for any translator to do it justice.in hebrew to render a word that should be singular as plural is a way of signifying that the reality behind the word is so unique,so intense,so extreme or so colossal that the word alone cannot contain it. And the red sea scrolls of isaiah 53 The DSS text (Great Isaiah Scroll) is slightly different than the Masoretic Text, and only allows for "his tomb" (rather than grave) and the plural is not possible.Anyway,what is written in isaiah 53 and what was done by jesus is not so much coincidence?
LSMQ, this is a Jewish forum. Do you realize that we do not believe in Jesus? You're assume these things are true because you've been taught them. You don't know our scriptures better than we do. Please, be respectful of the members of this forum. We are good Christians, and our scriptures do not teach anything about Jesus.
(07-03-2020, 02:53 AM)Ismq Wrote: In the hebrew bible not appears "guilty of sin"but "he made him ill".you want that the prophecies be very literal.and about "deaths"in the plural the original language is so big and so cosmic it's hard for any translator to do it justice.in hebrew to render a word that should be singular as plural is a way of signifying that the reality behind the word is so unique,so intense,so extreme or so colossal that the word alone cannot contain it. And the red sea scrolls of isaiah 53 The DSS text (Great Isaiah Scroll) is slightly different than the Masoretic Text, and only allows for "his tomb" (rather than grave) and the plural is not possible.Anyway,what is written in isaiah 53 and what was done by jesus is not so much coincidence?
Verse 10 mentions the Hebrew word asham which means to admit guilt. So whoever the servant is, they are admitting guilt.
Not sure what you mean about the word deaths. The Hebrew word used, b'motav, clearly means deaths in the plural. Look it up.
If you want to call it a coincidence, then go right ahead.
There are many other things in Isaiah 53 I haven't even touched on.
Not to mention the Isaiah scroll never had chapter breaks, so it is a complete story, not just one chapter as I mentioned previously. Read Chapters 52 and 54, they all fit together.
Plus you don't understand the poetic language of the Hebrew bible.
Read the attached paper I put together many years ago that shows how the words written in Isaiah 53 are the same ones used in other places in the Hebrew bible to refer to Israel.
Did you know that Israel was despised, oppressed and afflicted?
Did you know that Israel is referred to as "him"?
Did you know Israel is referred to as forsaken, sick, wounded and bruised?
Did you know that Israel is referred to as a lamb that is lead to the slaughter?
Now I'll ask you the same question from my perspective -
Is what is written in Isaiah 53 and what is written similarly about Israel throughout the Hebrew bible a coincidence?
I doubt you'll read either one, but here are 2 other sources, one written by my friend who just happens to be the owner of this forum and the other written by Uri Yosef that is a very detailed analysis.
But for some reason, I don't have a good feeling that you will take the time to really read and grasp what is written.
But then again, I hope you do if you are really searching for and want to know the truth.
Otherwise, there isn't much more to discuss on this.
If you believe Isaiah 53 is referring to Jesus and cannot be convinced otherwise from the very detailed information provided, then that's okay, you are free to believe what you want.
But there is nothing that will convince us here that Isaiah 53 is referring to Jesus.
(07-03-2020, 03:06 AM)Jason Wrote: LSMQ, this is a Jewish forum. Do you realize that we do not believe in Jesus? You're assume these things are true because you've been taught them. You don't know our scriptures better than we do. Please, be respectful of the members of this forum. We are good Christians, and our scriptures do not teach anything about Jesus.
(07-03-2020, 03:06 AM)Jason Wrote: LSMQ, this is a Jewish forum. Do you realize that we do not believe in Jesus? You're assume these things are true because you've been taught them. You don't know our scriptures better than we do. Please, be respectful of the members of this forum. We are good Christians, and our scriptures do not teach anything about Jesus.
First of all, I changed your font size as there is no need to make it as large as you had it.
Second, the question was asked about the prophecies of Jesus which are none, so I'm not sure why you made this long post George, it's a little out of character for you.
I'm guessing you are referring to the book written by Douglas Pyle?
It is not proper to just quote a single line as we then do not know the true content of what was written.
Plus, some of what you wrote is not correct. We never had one voice for 1000 years saying Isaiah 53 refers to Messiah and then changed it to Israel.
So all that you copied from the book cannot be understood properly and should not be used as an answer to the question.
I think the question should be answered in context which is what I plan on doing.
In the meantime, you might want to read what Rabbi Schulman writes in great detail about these quotes.
Could someone list all the prophecies of the Messiah?
I have this so far:
Judaism 101
The following passages in the Jewish scriptures are the ones that Jews consider to be messianic in nature or relating to the end of days. These are the ones that we rely upon in developing our messianic concept:
• Isaiah 2, 11, 42; 59:20
• Jeremiah 23, 30, 33; 48:47; 49:39
• Ezekiel 38:16
• Hosea 3:4-3:5
• Micah 4
• Zephaniah 3:9
• Zechariah 14:9
• Daniel 10:14
Also, this:
Michah 5:
Rashi's comments:
1And you, Bethlehem Ephrathah-you should have been the lowest of the clans of Judah-from you [he] shall emerge for Me, to be a ruler over Israel; and his origin is from of old, from days of yore.
And you, Bethlehem Ephrathah: whence David emanated, as it is stated (I Sam. 17:58): “The son of your bondsman, Jesse the Bethlehemite.” And Bethlehem is called Ephrath, as it is said (Gen. 48:7): “On the road to Ephrath, that is Bethlehem.”
you should have been the lowest of the clans of Judah: You should have been the lowest of the clans of Judah because of the stigma of Ruth the Moabitess in you.
from you shall emerge for Me: the Messiah, son of David, and so Scripture says (Ps. 118:22): “The stone the builders had rejected became a cornerstone.”
and his origin is from of old: “Before the sun his name is Yinnon” (Ps. 72:17).
