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  My Mom has been working on a Jewish-Spirited Gift Shop in Etsy - Check it out :)
Posted by: anew - 08-10-2025, 02:19 PM - Forum: Hangout - Replies (1)

Hi Smile Shalom Alechem
My Mom has been working on an Etsy Shop which I can only describe as a beacon of light in the dark place called the internet.
It's adorable IMO and she's been working on it every day.
I hope you'll find it pretty. More traction would make her really happy  Blush Heart
Take care y'all!
Bsorot Tovot <3
Link

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  query answer about being jewish
Posted by: COmentator - 08-08-2025, 12:11 PM - Forum: Judaism General - No Replies

Query Ask a Rabbi Ref No 6632934
Date: 08/06/2025
Incident ID: 6632934
puzzeled by definations:

Question:
puzzled by definations-in regard to a jewish person who is an aposate to another religion..i come across definations of this action such as Mumar or Meshumad or that they are no longer considered Jewish..On the other hand Ive also come across that even if a jewish person converts to another religion..they are still considered Jewish although Sinners.. are all this definations describe the same action?


Answer August 7,2025
Rabbi Eliezer Zalmanov | Chabad.org
Aug 7, 2025, 7:00 PM (13 hours ago)
to me

Hi ,

Regardless of what word is used (you're right, there are several) one thing that is entirely incorrect is to say that they aren't Jewish anymore. A Jew can never change his or her essence, no matter heretical they behave.

I hope this helps.

All the best,

Rabbi Eliezer Zalmanov
for Chabad.org


Browse our ongoing schedule of live classes and courses -- all free at: http://www.chabad.org/live

[size=1][size=1]Rabbi Eliezer Zalmanov | Chabad.org [/size]
[/size]

[size=1]Aug 7, 2025, 7:00 PM (13 hours ago)
[/size]

[size=1]to
[Image: cleardot.gif]
[/size]







Hi Philip,
Regardless of what word is used (you're right, there are several) one thing that is entirely incorrect is to say that they aren't Jewish anymore. A Jew can never change his or her essence, no matter heretical they behave.
I hope this helps.
All the best,
Rabbi Eliezer Zalmanov
for Chabad.org
Browse our ongoing schedule of live classes and courses -- all free at: http://www.chabad.org/live

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  Exodus 17
Posted by: gib65 - 08-07-2025, 10:40 PM - Forum: Judaism General - No Replies

Hello ladies and gentlemen, I will now post my thoughts on Exodus 17: water from the rock and the war with the Amalekites. As always, my source is chabad.org with biblegateway.com to assist with some of the more difficult passages.

Exodus 17:5-6 Wrote:5 And the Lord said to Moses, Pass before the people and take with you [some] of the elders of Israel, and take into your hand your staff, with which you struck the Nile, and go. 6 Behold, I shall stand there before you on the rock in Horeb, and you shall strike the rock, and water will come out of it, and the people will drink Moses did so before the eyes of the elders of Israel.

What role are the elders playing here? It seems like though the people got to drink the water, only the elders got to see how it poured from the rock after Moses struck it with his staff. So the striking of the rock and the pouring out of the water must have been done a distance away from the crowd and the elders must have delivered the water to them.

Exodus 17:7 Wrote:He named the place Massah [testing] and Meribah [quarreling] because of the quarrel of the children of Israel and because of their testing the Lord, saying, Is the Lord in our midst or not?

This would be (what?) the 5th time? 6th time? 20th time? That the people quarreled and tested the Lord, as if all the miracles and providence the Lord delivered in the past was never good enough to secure their faith. Why do the people keep doubting that the Lord will provide given everything He was shown them? Is this a statement about human nature?

Exodus 17:11-12 Wrote:11 It came to pass that when Moses would raise his hand, Israel would prevail, and when he would lay down his hand, Amalek would prevail. 12 Now Moses hands were heavy; so they took a stone and placed it under him, and he sat on it. Aaron and Hur supported his hands, one from this [side], and one from that [side]; so he was with his hands in faith until sunset.

This is a strange passages. It sounds as though sometimes Moses would raise his hand, causing the Israelites to prevail, and sometimes he would lower his hand, causing Amalek to prevail. Why would Moses sometimes favor the one and other times the other? Why not always keep his hand raised so that Israel would win?

Here's how I interpret this passage: it's not saying that Moses would waffle back and forth between Israel and Amalek, it's saying that Moses tried to keep his hand raised at all times so that Israel would always prevail (always be winning the battle) but his hands (or arms) would get tired so he needed the support of Aaron and Hur and the rock on which he sat. <-- At this point it seems he needed both hands raised whereas in verse 11, it only talks about his one hand (singular). I'm also unclear as to what "he was with his hands in faith until sunset" means except that the battle must have lasted until sunset.

No doubt, there are better translations out there. And there are. This one, for example, concurs with my interpretation.

Overall, the point of this passage seems to be that while the Lord (through Moses) can help the Israelites win the battle, even Moses must put in much effort... to the point where he needs the assistance of Aaron and Hur. God does not do all the work Himself.

Exodus 17:14 Wrote:The Lord said to Moses, Inscribe this [as] a memorial in the book, and recite it into Joshua's ears, that I will surely obliterate the remembrance of Amalek from beneath the heavens.

This is certainly ironic considering the inscription of this event in the book (Exodus?) would only serve to preserve the memory of Amalek. Perhaps what God means here is that he wishes for the memory of Amalek to only survive in the book and with Joshua, and other than that, Amalek is to be forgotten by all people and nations who, up until now, knew about them.

Exodus 17:16 Wrote:And he said, For there is a hand on the throne of the Eternal, [that there shall be] a war for the Lord against Amalek from generation to generation.

This is a rather cryptic passage. First, it begins with "And he said..." Who said? Moses? Is this being written to the memorial? Then there's this: "there is a hand on the throne of the Eternal...", which I'm totally lost as to a meaningful interpretation. And finally, "[that there shall be] a war for the Lord against Amalek from generation to generation." <-- It sounds like the Lord is punishing the Amalekites for engaging in war with the Israelites by cursing them to be wrapped up in a war that will last for several generations (at the end of which they will be obliterated? Thus wiping their memory from the face of the Earth?). But who will they be at war with? The passage describes it as "a war for the Lord". Meaning what? Surely, the Amalek are not engaging in war with the Lord. So then "for the Lord" means "for the Lord's sake"? For his satisfaction?

Over at biblegateway.com, Exodus 17:16 is translated thus:

Exodus 17:16 Wrote:He [Moses] said, “Because hands were lifted up against [or to] the throne of the Lord, the Lord will be at war against the Amalekites from generation to generation.”

According to this, it is indeed Moses speaking (but still unclear as to whether he is inscribing this to the memorial), and the "hand on the throne of the Eternal" means "hands were lifted up against/to the throne of the Lord" (the lifting of those hands symbolizing the Amalekites' attack on Israel), and (surprisingly) the war against the Amalekites is waged by the Lord himself (which presumably is the Lord's way of eradicating them from the Earth and from memory).

I suppose an important footnote at biblegateway.com is that the "Lord" in the phrase "hands were lifted up against the throne of the Lord" is an uncertain translation, perhaps explaining why it is translated as the "Eternal" over at chabad.org.

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  Israel never return to Egypt
Posted by: COmentator - 08-06-2025, 12:35 PM - Forum: Israel - No Replies

The Prohibition Against Living in Egypt - Parshat Ki Tavo - Chabad.org
Yerida - Wikipedia
Never Return to Egypt | My Jewish Learning


is there a jewish word for someone who disregards Moses and Joshua warning that Jews in Israel must not go down from Israel to Egypt (goy nations)?
While there isn't one specific Hebrew word that perfectly encapsulates someone who disregards Moses and Joshua's warning about Jews not returning to Egypt, several related terms and concepts exist within Jewish thought:
Yerida (ירידה): Literally meaning "descent," this term describes the act of emigrating from Israel. While it doesn't specifically target those returning to Egypt, it reflects the negative connotation associated with leaving the Land of Israel, particularly for countries perceived as less spiritually pure or that might lead to assimilation.
Mumar (מומר): This term refers to a Jew who has "changed" and abandoned their faith, according to Wikipedia. While not exclusively about the Egypt prohibition, it encompasses the act of rejecting core Jewish practices or beliefs, including those related to dwelling in the Land of Israel or avoiding negative influences.
Poshea Yisrael (פושע ישראל): This means "transgressor of Israel" and also describes a Jew who has strayed from the path of Jewish law and tradition. This broader term includes the disregard of warnings like those concerning Egypt.
It's important to consider that the prohibition against returning to Egypt stems from several concerns outlined in the Torah, including:
Avoiding Immoral Practices: Egyptian society was considered to be highly immoral, and returning there was seen as a risk of negative influence on the Jewish people.
Affront to God: Returning to Egypt would be an affront to God, who specifically saved the Israelites from slavery in Egypt.
Loss of Holiness: Some Jewish teachings suggest that Egypt was emptied of its holiness when the Israelites left, and returning there would be a spiritually unproductive act.
In conclusion, while "Yerida" describes the act of emigration from Israel, and terms like "Mumar" and "Poshea Yisrael" address the broader concept of abandoning Jewish practice, there isn't a single Hebrew word used specifically to denote someone who disregards the warning about returning to Egypt.

Based on the information available, there isn't one specific Jewish word that precisely encapsulates someone who disregards Moses and Joshua's warning about Jews in Israel not going down to Egypt (or "goy nations"). However, related terms and concepts from Jewish tradition can shed light on this scenario:
Mumar: This Hebrew term literally means "one who is changed" and refers to an apostate, someone who rejects Judaism, according to Wikipedia. While not solely focused on the "return to Egypt" aspect, disregarding core commandments and warnings from the Torah, such as the prohibition against relying on other nations instead of God, could be seen as a form of apostasy.
Kofer: This term translates to "denier" or "heretic" and is used to describe someone who denies the divine inspiration of the Torah or the authority of the Oral Law.
Tinok shenishba: This Talmudic term translates to "captured infant" and refers to a Jew who sins inadvertently due to having been raised without sufficient knowledge and understanding of Judaism. This highlights the importance of education and understanding in Jewish tradition.
Avodah Zarah: This term refers to idolatry, the worship of "strange gods" or "idols" instead of God alone. The warnings against returning to Egypt or interacting closely with other nations were often rooted in the fear that Jews would be led astray and worship other gods or adopt immoral practices. Therefore, choosing to go to Egypt despite the warnings could be seen as a step towards Avodah Zarah.
The core issue revolves around obedience to God's commandments and warnings found in the Torah. Disregarding these warnings would be considered a form of sin or transgression, according to The Jewish Theological Seminary. The specific context of the "return to Egypt" was significant because it represented a potential rejection of the path God had chosen for the Israelites and a possible return to the idolatry and immoral practices they had left behind.
In conclusion, while no single word perfectly fits the description, several concepts in Jewish tradition address the behavior of disregarding divine warnings and laws, emphasizing the importance of faithfulness, obedience, and maintaining one's unique identity as a member of the Jewish people

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  Foreign Langauge requirements for college degrees
Posted by: COmentator - 08-04-2025, 12:21 PM - Forum: Hangout - No Replies

For many US Colleges trying to get a degree in History learns learning a foreign langauge

(I tried for this type of degree but had to drop out of college  because I couldnt pass foreign langauges requirement for a US history degree)

if your going to study history abroad..that would certainly be useful....
otherwise  for me its frankly a waste of time and effort Sick

Foreign langauges in everyday life are about as useful as studying algerbra  

https://www.oah.org/tah/august/against-l...uirements/
https://www.insidehighered.com/views/201...tive-essay
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskAcademia/com...transcript.

• Practicality and career focus: For a significant portion of American history research, primary sources are predominantly in English. Critics argue that requiring foreign language proficiency for all American history degrees might not be necessary, especially for those pursuing specific areas of focus that don't necessitate foreign language use.
• Effectiveness of current requirements: Some argue that the typical foreign language proficiency exams, often involving timed translation of short passages with dictionaries, may not accurately reflect the ability to conduct research in another language. Students may pass these requirements without truly acquiring practical skills for engaging with extensive foreign-language texts.
• Elitism and gatekeeping: Some argue that foreign language requirements create an unnecessary hurdle for students, particularly those from working-class backgrounds, and can be seen as a form of academic gatekeeping that favors certain educational experiences over others.
• Alternative skills: It is suggested that other skills, such as programming languages for digital history projects, could be more valuable than foreign language proficiency for certain career paths in American history, according to the Society for US Intellectual History


Whenerver other kids were reading Dick and Jane books..I was reading High School literature  {John Steinbeck; Edgar Allan Poe}

I didnt take A degree for English leterature  but again the old foreign Langage requirement
https://www.quora.com/Why-do-colleges-ma...20flexible.

Limited impact on proficiency: Some studies suggest that a few semesters of foreign language instruction don't significantly improve language proficiency, questioning the practical value of the requirement.
• Focus on English literature: Critics argue that the requirement distracts from the core focus of an English literature degree and could be replaced with more relevant coursework.
• Cost and time: Foreign language courses add to the overall cost and time commitment of a degree, which can be a burden for some students.
• Accessibility and elitism: Some believe that foreign language requirements create barriers for students from certain backgrounds and perpetuate academic elitism.
• Ineffectiveness of Short-Term Study: Critics argue that the typical requirement of a few semesters of foreign language instruction is often insufficient to achieve true proficiency. This limited exposure may not lead to a meaningful ability to engage with foreign texts or cultures and may be seen as a mere bureaucratic hurdle rather than a valuable learning experience.
• Time and Resource Allocation: Requiring foreign language study may detract from the time and resources that could be dedicated to other aspects of an English Literature degree, such as specialized coursework or developing critical thinking and writing skills that are directly relevant to their chosen field.
• Focus on English: Some argue that English Literature programs should prioritize an in-depth understanding of English language and literature without diverting resources to foreign language acquisition, which might be perceived as a less relevant skill for future careers in this field.
• Alternative Pathways: Some educators propose that instead of mandatory language classes, students should be offered alternative ways to demonstrate cross-cultural understanding or specialized knowledge, such as focused study abroad programs or coursework emphasizing globalization and cultural diversity

also found out the following:
relatively small percentage of US colleges and universities require students to study a foreign language for a bachelor's degree. While the exact number varies by study, it's generally reported that around 12% of institutions have such a requirement. This means the majority of institutions do not mandate foreign language study for graduation.
Here's a more detailed breakdown:
Declining Trend:
While historically, a larger proportion of colleges had foreign language requirements, the trend has been downwards. Some studies indicate that in the past, over two-thirds of institutions required foreign language study, but this number has decreased significantly.
Variations Among Institutions:
Some universities may have specific language requirements for certain majors or programs, even if not across the board for all bachelor's degrees.
Focus on Competency:
While formal requirements might be less common, many institutions encourage or recommend foreign language study, and some focus on demonstrating competency rather than simply completing a set number of courses.
Globalized World:
Despite the declining trend, the importance of multilingual skills in a globalized world is increasingly recognized, with some arguing for a stronger emphasis on foreign language education.

• Time and Financial Burden: Critics suggest that the additional time and expense of fulfilling a language requirement, especially if it doesn't align with a student's interests or future career goals, can be a significant obstacle, particularly for students from lower socioeconomic backgrounds.
• Focus on "Cultural Capital": Some argue that foreign language requirements are sometimes used to signal a certain level of "cultural capital" or intellectual breadth, which may not always be equitable or necessary for all graduates. This is rooted in a historical view of university education as a privilege for those who could afford to pursue "impractical" knowledge for self-betterment, according to a Quora discussion.
• Practical vs. Broad Education: There can be tension between the desire for a broad, liberal education (which often includes language study to foster cultural understanding and critical thinking) and the demands of increasingly specialized and career-focused degree programs.
• Critics of mandatory foreign language study for all degrees sometimes argue that it may not be directly relevant to every career path, particularly in fields with a strong focus on technical or specific vocational skills.
• For example, it's been argued that learning a programming language might be more beneficial for some students than a foreign language, depending on their chosen field
Also
The most damning argument against mandatory language education lies in the stark disconnect between time invested and proficiency achieved. Despite years of study, the vast majority of American students fail to develop functional language skills.
The statistics are sobering. Less than one percent of American adults are proficient in a foreign language they learned in a U.S. classroom. According to the Center for Applied Second Language Studies, only 15% of high school students reach proficiency advanced enough to converse on everyday topics easily, even after four years of instruction.

The broader picture is even more discouraging. Of approximately 50 million current U.S. high school graduates who received foreign language instruction, only 10 million (20%) claim any ability to communicate in the language they studied. Even more telling, “just a few million” report being able to speak the language reasonably well, meaning more than 90% do not achieve functional fluency.
Implementation Nightmare: Costs, Shortages, and System Failures
Even if mandatory language education were theoretically beneficial, practical implementation faces overwhelming challenges that make success unlikely under current conditions.
The financial implications are staggering. Successful language programs require substantial funding, with dual language education costing $896 to $1,568 per student — representing 10% to 16% increases in overall school expenditures. The majority of costs stem from staff time for administrator planning, family communication, and crucial teacher certification and professional development, plus expenses for specialized textbooks and substitute teachers.
These costs disproportionately burden already-struggling districts. Districts with high proportions of English Language Learners often receive approximately 1% less state and local funding than similar low-ELL districts, creating an equity crisis where those most needing language support receive less resources.
The teacher shortage crisis is even more severe. The U.S. Department of Education identifies foreign language as a high-need field, with 2013–2014 data showing 36 states reporting K-6 shortages and 39 states reporting 7–12 shortages. The situation has likely worsened since then.
Even existing teachers often lack adequate proficiency. Only just over half of teacher candidates reach the “Advanced Low” proficiency level on the ACTFL Oral Proficiency Scale — the minimal target for most languages. This combination of severe shortages and inadequate preparation among current educators points to a workforce pipeline crisis.
A national mandate would drastically increase demand for qualified teachers that the current system cannot meet, likely leading to even lower-quality instruction and perpetuating the cycle of ineffective programs.
Student Motivation and Cultural Resistance
Perhaps the most fundamental challenge involves student engagement and broader cultural attitudes toward multilingualism in America.
Foreign language study is often perceived as a school requirement with limited personal relevance, leading to lack of investment from students. When students engage with material out of obligation (extrinsic motivation) rather than genuine interest (intrinsic motivation), learning effectiveness plummets, particularly for skill acquisition like language learning.
Anecdotal evidence suggests many students learn only basic phrases even after years of study, indicating fundamental lack of engagement and deep learning. This raises questions about the efficacy of mandating subjects when intrinsic motivation is crucial for success.
The broader cultural context compounds these challenges. The United States maintains what scholars call “normative monolingualism” — a cultural ideology where bilingualism is often viewed with suspicion rather than appreciation. This cultural resistance manifests in policy: currently only 11 states have mandatory foreign language graduation requirements, while many others accept alternatives like computer coding.
This lack of cultural support for multilingualism suggests that national mandates would face significant political resistance, potentially leading to underfunded, poorly implemented programs that further entrench current problems rather than solving them.
The combination of student disengagement, inadequate resources, and cultural resistance creates conditions where mandatory requirements may actually harm rather than help language education by forcing participation without providing conditions for success.
This “proficiency paradox” — significant time and resources invested with minimal measurable outcomes — suggests that simply mandating language study without fundamental changes to teaching methods will not yield desired results.
The low success rates stem from systemic pedagogical problems. Students often remain passive participants, viewing language learning as the teacher’s responsibility rather than developing personal agency crucial for acquisition. Languages are frequently treated as academic subjects — collections of facts to be memorized from books — rather than skills to be actively acquired through practice and communication.
https://medium.com/future-of-school/shou...0fe18438a3

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  France, Canada, Germany, and the United Kingdom, indicate will recognize "Palestine"
Posted by: Robert - 07-31-2025, 05:22 PM - Forum: Israel - Replies (13)

France, Canada, Germany, and the United Kingdom, indicate that they will recognize "Palestine". 

This will have no practical significance and most countries recognize "Palestine", anyway:

Quote:'As of March 2025, the State of Palestine is recognized as a sovereign state by 147 of the 193 member states of the United Nations [...]'.

Source:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internatio..._Palestine


Recognition of "Palestine" is alleged to be linked to a two-state solution. 
Firstly, there is no legal or historical justification for the "Palestinian" Arabs' claim to any part of the land of Israel. 
Secondly, a proto two-state solution experiment has already been tested in the Oslo Accords where the "Palestinian" Arabs were granted autonomy of the whole of Gaza and about 40% of Judah and Samaria ("West Bank, the"). 
This resulted in terrorism by Fatah (aka "Palestinian Authority, the"), in the "Palestinian Authority Martyrs Fund" the "pay for slay" reward pension for acts of terrorism against Israeli Jewish civilians including children. 
It also resulted in thousands of rockets being fired at Israeli cities from Gaza, and in the October 7th, 2023 massacre by "Palestinian" Arabs from Gaza upon Israeli Jewish civilians. 
Thirdly, the "Palestinian" Arabs do not believe or want a two-state solution. Their objective is to murder or expel all the Jews from the Jewish people's ancestral-homeland of Israel, and to take ALL the land. 
Their use of the name "Palestine" can consistently be seen as seeking to negate the name and the country of Israel. 
The "Palestinian" Arabs claim ALL the land of Israel, with zero historical or legal justification.

There is no justification for any "Palestinian" Arab state in the land of Israel, and we have seen what the "Palestinian" Arabs did with their autonomy.
The so called "two-state solution" is dead. In reality it constitutes a desire for the destruction of Israel.


The support by countries for recognizing "Palestine" is said to be the current circumstances in Gaza. Israel must be the only country in history where there are demands on it to feed its enemy, an enemy which seeks to grip the remaining Israeli hostages rather than once more be allowed to resume perpetually sponging-off the international community for food aid.

Therefore let's take a brief look at the real reasons why the above countries are making demands on Israel and are intending to recognize "Palestine".

Why does Ireland (the Republic of Ireland) and more specifically most Irish people, support the "Palestinian" Arabs?
The reason is said to be that the Irish compare the Israelis with the colonial British, having regard to Irish political history: 
https://www.npr.org/2024/03/14/123339583...alestinian
However, the predominate religion in Ireland is Catholicism and Catholics know perfectly well from the Bible that the land of Israel is the ancestral-homeland of the Jewish people. 
Therefore something does not make logical sense in the Irish preference for the "Palestinian" Arabs! 
How then do we explain this: It is anti-Jewish prejudice; anti-Semitism, which appears to work like this: If it has become unfashionable to kick the Jew, then kick the Jews' country Israel. 

What about other anti-Israel countries such as Spain, and Sweden which is seeking that the E.U. suspend its trade agreement with Israel, and the countries currently indicating they will recognize "Palestine"?

Spain:
'The proportion of Muslims in Spain is estimated to be around 4.45% to 5.32% of the total population.'
(Google AI Overview.)

Sweden:
'The Muslim population in Sweden is estimated to be around 8% [...]'.
(Google AI Overview.)


Now the countries currently indicating they intend to recognize "Palestine":

France:
'In France, Muslims represent approximately 10% of the population. [...]'.
(Google AI Overview.)

UK:
'In 2021, Muslims comprised 6.5% of the population in England and Wales, according to the UK Census. [...]'.
(Google AI Overview.)

Germany:
'In Germany, Muslims constitute approximately 6.4% to 6.7% of the total population. [...]'.
(Google AI Overview.)

Canada:
'In Canada, the proportion of the population identifying as Muslim has more than doubled in the last two decades. It rose from 2.0% in 2001 to 4.9% in 2021. [...]'.
(Google AI Overview.)

For the political party or coalition in power in these countries, such a population constitutes a gold mine for new votes, and what better way to obtain more votes from it, than by supporting the "Palestinian" Arabs baseless-claims to the land of Israel. 
While tapping-in to that rich-vein of votes by the simple means of supporting Israel's enemies, these countries can also at the same time, conveniently massage their institutionalized anti-Semitism.



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  Asking for help with a fake Hebrew text
Posted by: jmacdonald - 07-26-2025, 07:18 PM - Forum: Hebrew Language Forum - Replies (2)

Greetings

Could anyone kindly help me with the following?

The image below is a detail of a 15th century painting.

Its "text" is usually interpreted by scholars as fake Hebrew, at it most probably is. (I do not know Hebrew.)

Nevertheless, and here's my question, though being fake Hebrew, to what variant of written Hebrew could it be similar to? That is, what type of Hebrew was the artist author of the painting trying to imitate?

Many thanks in advance for any help.

Best regards,

João 

   

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  Israel and the goy world
Posted by: COmentator - 07-26-2025, 10:34 AM - Forum: Israel - Replies (5)

Today I was compelled to write the following
OH Israel: Remember the story ofNoah and the Flood…he listed to the L-d warning and was saved….whose who refused to listen to the L-d were punished…an allegorical definition of this story could point points out the descendents of Easu and Ishamel {Goyish nations] were punished for refusing to listen to the L-d and instead waging eternal war on the people of the Book…only those who took the L-ds warning were saved (jewish people)  The flood represents the Goy nations attempt to “drown” Israel; Mount ararat represents The Land of Israel; the Ark represents the Torahl the Talmud the Oral Law,,the dove represents the remandier of the L-ds Promise to Israel via his promise to Abraham
All Israel is Bound to the Covenant  all the actions of Jewish Persons weather among themselves or among the goy nations will either serve as Ambassadors of the L-d or not remember…whereever Jewish persons reside do not let the temtations of Pride; arrogance; secular materalism or atheism cause Jewish persons by their actions to Dimish the values of the L-d to the rest of the world. Be  reminder to the Goy nations that the L-d exists but do not intermarry with them or dress like them or act like them at the caust of loosening the Covenent with the L-d.
To: Torah Scholors: Beware of the dangers of Pride and Arrogance
When having opposing viewpoints over the Torah—do so to try to understand and live the meaning of scripture; do not make dishonest arguments  In order to “win” disagreements over Torah Viewpoints..
Remember Phinehas who was zealus for the L-d yet  Phineas sinned due to his not availing his servitude of Torah instruction to the masses at the time leading up to the Battle of Gibeah. In addition, he also failed to address the needs of relieving Jephthah of his vow to sacrifice his daughter. As consequence, the high priesthood was taken from him and temporarily given to the offspring of Ithamar, essentially Eli and his sons. Likewise story serves as a warning against pride and the withholding of Torah knowledge. Phinehas lost his high-priestly dignity due to his haughty behavior towards Jephthah.. This incident highlights the importance of sharing Torah knowledge, even with those less educated.The Midrash teaches that both Phinehas and Jephthah were punished for their pride. Phinehas lost the divine spirit that had previously rested upon him, while Jephthah became ill and lost many of his limbs. This outcome emphasizes the severe consequences of allowing arrogance to prevent the sharing of crucial Torah knowledge.This cautionary tale reminds us that those well-versed in Torah have a responsibility to teach and guide others, regardless of their perceived status or knowledge level. It underscores the importance of humility and the obligation to share wisdom with all Jews, especially those who may lack a strong foundation in Torah observance
Remember Jephthah whose rash vow caused his daugthers death and brought  punishment on himself and Phinehas as well

To all Jewish persons..remember how the L-d was “..I am He who inflicted punishment upon Samson, Amnon, and Zimri, and who will inflict punishment upon any one who will act in accordance with their practices... “
Remember the actions of Samson who was consecrated to the L-d and when the Spirit of the L-d was on him defeated many enemies..yet because  As his eyes led him astray by lust, this was the reason he was blinded…
Remember because of Jair wickedness  who“ erected an altar unto Baal, and on penalty of death he forced the people to prostrate themselves before it.…Then the angel approached Jair, and said to him: "Hear the words of the Lord ere thou diest. I appointed thee as prince over my people, and thou didst break My covenant, seduce My people, and seek to burn My servants with fire, but they were animated and freed by the living, the heavenly fire. As for thee, thou wilt die, and die by fire, a fire in which thou wilt abide forever." Thereupon the angel burnt him with a thousand men, whom he had taken in the act of paying homage to Baal
Do not follow the actions of King Amon of Judah:”… according to a lost Jewish apocryphal writing, reads:
"No sin is more grievous than idolatry, for it is treason against God. Yet even this has been forgiven upon sincere repentance; but he that sins from a mere spirit of opposition, to see whether God will punish the wicked, shall find no pardon, although he say in his heart, 'I shall have peace in the end (by repenting), though I walk in the stubbornness of my evil heart'" (Deut. xxix. 19). Such a one was Amon, the son of Manasseh, for the (Apocryphal) Scripture says: "And Amon reasoned an evil reasoning of transgression and said: 'My father from his childhood was a great transgressor, and he repented in his old age. So will I now walk after the lust of my soul and afterward return to the Lord.' And he committed more evil in the sight of the Lord than all that were before him; but the Lord God speedily cut him off from this good land. And his servants conspired against him and slew him in his own house, and he reigned two years only." It is noteworthy that this very midrashic fragment casts light upon the emphatic teaching of the Mishnah (Yoma, viii. 9): "Whosoever says, 'I will sin and repent thereafter,' will not be granted the time for repentance.
Do not follow the actions of King Jehoiakim of Judah:”.. the Jerusalem Talmud cites him as an example of one who has forfeited his place in heaven by publicly transgressing the law.

Remember how the actionsof the Jewish people  brought about the death of King Josiah: “..also that Josiah's death was brought about because despite his sincere religious reform, he had in fact been deceived; thus he refused to heed the Prophet Jeremiah, thinking that no sword would pass through the Land of Israel. He was struck by 300 darts; he made no complaint except to acknowledge "The Lord is righteous, for I rebelled against His commandment.”
ve-samachta be-chagekha  dance with the Torah with a joyful heart; Jews who studied Talmud by heart while carrying stones on their back, those Jews who went on whispering Zemirot shel Shabbat

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  Exodus 16
Posted by: gib65 - 07-26-2025, 02:07 AM - Forum: Judaism General - Replies (14)

Well, I certainly have a lot of questions when it comes to Exodus 16. As some of you probably know, I'm on a deep dive quest to do a thorough (sometimes too thorough) analysis of Exodus, going chapter by chapter, and posting questions, comments, and my thoughts in general. Today, I post on Exodus 16, the story of manna from heaven. My source, as always, is here.

Exodus 16:5 Wrote:And it shall be on the sixth day that when they prepare what they will bring, it will be double of what they gather every day.

So just a technical question on the math... this means that if the Israelites collect X amount of bread per day, thus accumulating 6X on the 6th day, the Lord is saying He will double it (for 12X total) on day 6... correct?

Exodus 16:6 Wrote:[Thereupon,] Moses and Aaron said to all the children of Israel, [In the] evening, you shall know that the Lord brought you out of the land of Egypt.

There's that phrase again... "you shall know that the Lord..." I brought this up before, that knowing that it is indeed the Lord that did X or said Y (or whatever) is a recurring theme. On a first reading, this passage sounds odd... don't the Israelites already know the Lord brought them out of Egypt? Weren't they there? But as mentioned earlier, I feel the emphasis is on "the Lord" rather than "brought you out of Egypt". It's as if the Israelites doubt it is the Lord who is guiding them, and instead some demigod or demon, or maybe nothing at all (as if Moses and Aaron are deceiving them or are mad). So the Lord's show of providence will convince them, this passage is saying, that it is indeed the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Exodus 16:7 Wrote:And [in the] morning, you shall see the glory of the Lord when He hears your complaints against the Lord but [of] what [significance] are we, that you make [the people] complain against us?

The second part of this verse is rather cryptic. I googled Exodus 16:7 and came across this alternate wording at BibleGateway:

Exodus 16:7 Wrote:and in the morning you will see the glory of the Lord, because he has heard your grumbling against him. Who are we, that you should grumble against us?

Is Moses and Aaron saying (essentially): "Hey, don't blame us. It's the Lord's doing."?

Reading ahead to Exodus 16:8, it sounds exactly like Moses and Aaron are saying "Hey, don't blame us" (though with a hint that the Israelites are treading on thin ice as any complaints they level against Moses and Aaron are, in reality, leveled against God).

Exodus 16:9-10 Wrote:9 And Moses said to Aaron, Say to the entire community of the children of Israel, Draw near before the Lord, for He has heard your complaints. 10 And it came to pass when Aaron spoke to the entire community of the children of Israel, that they turned toward the desert, and behold! the glory of the Lord appeared in the cloud.

Here again, we find Aaron performing a very specific role. Moses just finished speaking to the Israelites directly, but for the purposes of the miracle the Lord is about to perform, Aaron is the appropriate one to address the crowd. It's as if Moses can speak directly to the Israelites if it's just casual talk, but in the case of ceremonial formalities, it must be Aaron who speaks directly to the crowd.

However, in the passages that immediately follow, it's not clear what the miracle or act of God was:

Exodus 16:11-12 Wrote:11 The Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 12 I have heard the complaints of the children of Israel. Speak to them, saying, In the afternoon you shall eat meat, and in the morning you shall be sated with bread, and you shall know that I am the Lord, your God.

Are the people witnessing God speaking to Moses? If the people are witnessing this, why doesn't the Lord speak to them directly? He even instructs Moses to "speak to [the people], saying..." as if the people aren't already hearing this. Is it that Moses and Aaron must act as intermediaries? But then, why must the people witness this at all? Why can't Moses and Aaron just "pass on the message" as they usually do? If the people aren't witnessing this, then the only miracle they witness must be the Lord (or the "glory" of the Lord, whatever that is) appearing in the cloud. But then why does the passage cut it short there and immediately transition to what the Lord said to Moses? What's the significance of appearing in a cloud for the crowd to witness? Given that verse 9 ends with "for [God] has heard your complaints" it seems logical that the Lord intends to address these complaints, which suggests the people were witness to what God said to Moses. But then all the questions above.

Exodus 16:13-15 Wrote:13 It came to pass in the evening that the quails went up and covered the camp, and in the morning there was a layer of dew around the camp. 14 The layer of dew went up, and behold, on the surface of the desert, a fine, bare [substance] as fine as frost on the ground. 15 When the children of Israel saw [it], they said to one another, It is manna, because they did not know what it was, and Moses said to them, It is the bread that the Lord has given you to eat.

So the quails are the meat God promised in the afternoon (not clear how they captured them... shot them with spears? Bow & Arrows? Did they fall down dead?) and the dew that surfaces on the ground in the morning leaves behind the bread as a residue. Google tells me that "manna" actually means (in the original Hebrew) "what is it?" (so technically, "manna" doesn't really mean bread).

Exodus 16:19 Wrote:And Moses said to them, Let no one leave over [any] of it until morning.

This reminds me of one of the rules God laid down for Passover:

Exodus 12:10 Wrote:And you shall not leave over any of [the lamb] until morning, and whatever is left over of it until morning, you shall burn in fire

Interesting that this command reasserts itself more than once.

Exodus 16:21 Wrote:They gathered it morning by morning, each one according to his eating capacity, and [when] the sun grew hot, it melted.

So they only had the morning on each day to gather an omer (or at least until the sun got too hot)? An omer must be a large portion then (unless the sun gets hot really quickly). In any case, an omer is described as one's eating capacity, so it's about a full stomach's worth. How long this takes to gather depends (I guess) on how sparse the bread is across the landscape.

Exodus 16:22 Wrote:It came to pass on the sixth day that they gathered a double portion of bread, two omers for [each] one, and all the princes of the community came and reported [it] to Moses.

So I guess I got the math wrong. If after 6 days, they gather 6X worth of bread (though they can't keep it more than a day), the Lord is not saying He will double it. He is saying only that on the 6th day He will allow the Israelites to gather double what they usually gather per day. I also interpreted Exodus 16:5 to mean God would provide double the bread, but from this passage it's only clear that the Israelites gathered double the bread. Given that they only have a limited amount of time to gather 1 omer each day (before the sun melts it), it would make sense that the Lord did in fact double the yield (then again, maybe God just saw to it that it was a cool day).

It's also unclear whether the Israelites are just carelessly breaking the 1 omer per day rule here (even though, unbeknownst to them, God permits it) or if they were told beforehand that on this day they were to gather double what they normally would gather. Exodus 16:5 only foretells what they would do on day 6, but not why. It makes sense to me, however, that Moses told them that gathering twice the amount was permitted. Furthermore, the next passage  makes sense of this exception to the rule: it will be the 7th day (the Sabbath) and so it makes sense to gather double the yield and to save whatever they wish to leave over for the next day (this too being an exception to the rule, that of consuming the entire yield on the day it was gathered).

This passage also contains the first mention (that I recall) of "princes" of the community. Is this an accurate translation of the original Hebrew? Are there all of a sudden monarchical structures in the tribes of Israel?

Exodus 16:27-30 Wrote:27 It came about that on the seventh day, [some] of the people went out to gather [manna], but they did not find [any]. 28 The Lord said to Moses, How long will you refuse to observe My commandments and My teachings? 29 See that the Lord has given you the Sabbath. Therefore, on the sixth day, He gives you bread for two days. Let each man remain in his place; let no man leave his place on the seventh day. 30 So the people rested on the seventh day.

A little unclear what's happening in these passages (whether some of the Israelites went out on the Sabbath to collect bread or they did not), but it sounds like this is the order of events: 27 - some of the Israelites go out to gather bread on the Sabbath, finding none; 28 - the Lord (for some reason) blames Moses rather than the ones who went out to gather the bread; 29 - Moses rectifies the situation by telling the Israelites not to go out; 30 - the Israelites obey. Perhaps Moses' sin was that he didn't adequately instruct the Israelites on what to do on the Sabbath (just a guess), but the way the Lord phrased His criticism sounds more fitting for the Israelites who went out to gather bread on the Sabbath.

Exodus 16:34 Wrote:As the Lord had commanded Moses, Aaron deposited it before the testimony to be preserved.

Just out of curiosity, I looked up what "testimony" means here and I found this translation:

Exodus 16:34 Wrote:As the Lord commanded Moses, Aaron put the manna with the tablets of the covenant law, so that it might be preserved.

So the "testimony" is the 10 Commandments. The manna (bread*) was preserved with the tablets in the Arch of the Covenant.

Exodus 16:35 Wrote:And the children of Israel ate the manna for forty years until they came to an inhabited land. They ate the manna until they came to the border of the land of Canaan.

So the Israelites ate the 1 omer's worth of bread over 40 years? How often did they eat it? What portion sizes did they eat? Was it a formal part of a ceremony or ritual? Was it like Jesus multiplying the fish such that there was always a sufficient supply for all to eat? When Exodus 16:34 uses the term "preserved" does that describe not only the freshness of the bread but its quantity as well?

Exodus 16:36 Wrote:The omer is one tenth of an ephah.

According to Google AI, an ephah is about 22 liters, making an omer a bit more than 2 liters (that'll fill one's belly for sure!). Why the need to mention this in such an awkward place in the story (or at all), I'm not sure. We already know from Exodus 16:16 that an omer is approximately one's "eating capacity" (so a full stomach's worth). But who am I to complain about extra information being inserted at any point in the story?

* I no longer like calling it "manna" since manna means "what is it".

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  gEHENNA
Posted by: COmentator - 07-21-2025, 11:26 AM - Forum: Judaism General - Replies (1)

Gehinnom[25] became a figurative name for the place of spiritual purification for the wicked dead in Judaism.[26] According to most Jewish sources, the period of purification or punishment is limited to only 12 months and every Sabbath day is excluded from punishment, while the fires of Gehinnom are banked and its tortures are suspended. For the duration of Shabbat, the spirits who are serving time there are released to roam the earth. At Motza'ei Shabbat, the angel Dumah, who has charge over the souls of the wicked, herds them back for another week of torment.[4] After this the soul will move on to Olam Ha-Ba (the world to come), be destroyed, or continue to exist in a state of consciousness of remorse.[27]

In classic rabbinic sources, Gehinnom occasionally occurs as a place of punishment or destruction of the wicked.[28] Rabbi Joshua ben Levi is said to have wandered through Gehenna, like Dante, under the guidance of the angel Duma. Joshua describes seven chambers of Gehenna, each one presided over by a famous sinner from Jewish history, and populated by deceased sinners suffering brutal punishments.[29] According to another rabbinic story, the ancient Israelite leader Jair once threatened to burn alive those individuals who refused to worship Baal. In response, God sent the angel Nathaniel, who rescued the individuals and declared to Jair that "you will die, and die by fire, a fire in which you will abide forever."[30]

Rabbinic texts contain various answers to the questions of who suffers in Gehenna and for how long. According to the Tosefta, normal sinners are punished in Gehenna for 12 months, after which their souls leave Gehenna and turn into dust; while heretics, those who abandon the community (porshim midarkhei tzibur), and those who cause the masses to sin, suffer in Gehenna eternally.[31] The Talmud states that all who enter Gehenna eventually leave it, except for adulterers, those who humiliate others in public, and those who call others by derogatory names

In classic [[Rabbinical Judaism|rabbinic]] sources, Gehinnom occasionally occurs as a place of punishment or destruction of the wicked.e.g. [[Mishnah]] [[Kiddushin (Talmud)|Kiddushin]] 4.14, [[Pirkei Avot|Avot]] 1.5, 5.19, 20; [[Tosefta]] Berachot 6.15; [[Babylonian Talmud]] [[Rosh Hashanah]] 16b:7a, Berachot 28bThose who committed incest are subject to two curses in the Torah and kareth; Amnon was said to be possibly consigned to the 2nd circle of Gehenna.{{Cite web|url=https://www.thehebrewcafe.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=680|title=ASk the Rabbi Query...|website=www.thehebrewcafe.com| date=23 July 2021}}  An account of Joshua Ben Levi reporting from hell tells how in the fourth compartment are ten nations presided by Jeroboam. The angel who punishes them is Maktiel (Matniel). Jeroboam, however, has immunity for he himself had studied the Law, and he cometh from those who had said: "We will do and hearken."[https://sacred-texts.com/journals/jras/1893-15.htm Hebrew visions of Hell and Paradise] Midrash Konen places Ahab in the fifth department of Gehenna, as having the heathen under his charge. Though held up as a warning to sinners, Ahab is also described as displaying noble traits of character (Sanh. 102b; Yer. Sanh. xi. 29b). And according to the description of  7th circle of Gehenna by [[Joshua ben Levi]], who, like Dante, wandered through hell under the guidance of the angel Duma, Absalom still dwells there, having the rebellious heathen in charge; and when the angels with their fiery rods run also against Absalom to smite him like the rest, a heavenly voice says: "Spare Absalom, the son of David, My servant."{{cite book|editor-last=Singer|editor-first=Isidore |chapter=ABSALOM ("The Father of Peace") |chapter-url=https://archive.org/details/TheJewishEncyclopediaFunkWagnallVolIAachApocalypticLiterature1901/page/n177/mode/2up|date=1901|title=The Jewish Encyclopedia|publisher= Funk & Wagnall|location=New York and London|volume=1|editor-link=Isidore Singer|p=133}} The successor to Abimelech equalled, if he did not surpass, him in wickedness. Jair erected an altar unto Baal, and on penalty of death he forced the people to prostrate themselves before it. Only seven men remained firm in the true faith, and refused to the last to commit idolatry. Their names were Deuel, Abit Yisreel, Jekuthiel, Shalom, Ashur, Jehonadab, and Shemiel. They said to Jair: "We are mindful of the lessons given us by our teachers and our mother Deborah. 'Take ye heed,' they said, 'that your heart lead you not astray to the right or to the left. Day and night ye shall devote yourselves to the study of the Torah.' Why, then, dost thou seek to corrupt the people of the Lord, saying, 'Baal is God, let us worship him'? If he really is what thou sayest, then let him speak like a god, and we will pay him worship." For the blasphemy they had uttered against Baal, Jair commanded that the seven men be burnt. When his servants were about to carry out his order, God sent the angel Nathaniel, the lord over the fire, and he extinguished the fire though not before the servants of Jair were consumed by it. Not only did the seven men escape the danger of suffering death by fire, but the angel enabled them to flee unnoticed, by striking all the people present with blindness. Then the angel approached Jair, and said to him: "Hear the words of the Lord ere thou diest. I appointed thee as prince over my people, and thou didst break My covenant, seduce My people, and seek to burn My servants with fire, but they were animated and freed by the living, the heavenly fire. As for thee, thou wilt die, and die by fire, a fire in which thou wilt abide forever." Thereupon the angel burnt him with a thousand men, whom he had taken in the act of paying homage to Baal.[https://archive.org/details/legendsofjew...2/mode/2up Legends of the Jews Vol 4 pp.42-43] In the Aggadah, [[Jehoiakim]] is still undergoing punishment for his sins. Although the Babylonian Talmud does not include him among those who have no place in the world to come (cf. Sanh. 103b),[http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articl...-jehoiakim Jewish encyclopedia Jehoiakim] the Jerusalem Talmud cites him as an example of one who has forfeited his place in heaven by publicly transgressing the law.[https://www.encyclopedia.com/religion/en.../jehoiakim Encyclopedia.com]T

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