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Luke 6:41-42
#21
No one is criticizing you. They are criticizing Christianity. The problem is that you identify with a dogma. Dogmas MUST be criticized. Why would anyone take that personally?
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#22
(02-24-2021, 07:13 AM)Blue Bird Wrote: Still I don't think that constant criticism of Christianity is a good way. (one reason of cause is that I am a Christian and I don't like to be criticised. The other reason is the big chain that ties you up with the object of your criticism in a negative way.)

I don't see us constantly criticizing Christianity, I see it as defending Judaism.

As Jason said, it is not a personal attack.

If Christians never tried to convert us or tell us what our bible says, then we wouldn't really have much to say about Christianity.

Just like we don't really say anything about Hinduism or other religions.

You see, from my experience, most Christians I have interacted with don't ask questions to actually learn. They seem to want to hear our answers and then ask us other questions that relate to Christian theology.

If I were to ask a Christian a question or a person that believes in any other religion, I wouldn't tell them, well that's not what my bible teaches and that's not the truth of G-d's word.

I would try to understand why people believe what they believe and leave it at that.

I know the Christian bible says to go out and proselytize, to convert others. But we see what that leads to most of the time.

I will say Christianity and other beliefs do have some very positive teachings that help people with their lives, but let that be an individual choice without coercion.
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#23
(02-24-2021, 02:53 PM)Jason Wrote: No one is criticizing you. They are criticizing Christianity. The problem is that you identify with a dogma. Dogmas MUST be criticized. Why would anyone take that personally?

You know that I identify with a dogma? According to Cambridge Dictionary a dogma is "a fixed, especially religious belief or set of beliefs that people are expected to accept without any doubts." 

That doesn't apply to me. My family has nothing to do with Christianity (in fact they are more the opposite). So tell me, who should expect me to be a Christian? And I went through an incredible amount of doubts. That doesn't match either. It's a person and I love him.  

Where is the law that dogmas must be criticized? You would spend many lifetimes if you wanted to criticize all dogmas. 
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#24
(02-24-2021, 03:21 PM)searchinmyroots Wrote:
(02-24-2021, 07:13 AM)Blue Bird Wrote: Still I don't think that constant criticism of Christianity is a good way. (one reason of cause is that I am a Christian and I don't like to be criticised. The other reason is the big chain that ties you up with the object of your criticism in a negative way.)

I don't see us constantly criticizing Christianity, I see it as defending Judaism.

Do Jews who are "in danger" of changing their religion respond well to the (from my perspective) attacks on Christianity? It reminds me when I started smoking as a teenager, my father was very much against it. Did I stop? No, I was angry and continued smoking.

As Jason said, it is not a personal attack. 

What your read is the second edition of my post. The original was like that: Your history gives you every right to reject Christianity. - That's true. I can't measure the consequences of all the unjustices (a weak word) you experienced from so called Christians. We deserve criticism. But it hurts anyway. 

If Christians never tried to convert us or tell us what our bible says, then we wouldn't really have much to say about Christianity.

Maybe "message" is a better word (no one can convert a person). We are called to preach the Gospel. That's not an option but a command. Sometimes we forget another command that sais: "If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home." In other words: Leave that person alone!

Just like we don't really say anything about Hinduism or other religions.

You see, from my experience, most Christians I have interacted with don't ask questions to actually learn. They seem to want to hear our answers and then ask us other questions that relate to Christian theology.


Your are right. I know of this strategy. What it actually is, is insincerity and manipulation. 

If I were to ask a Christian a question or a person that believes in any other religion, I wouldn't tell them, well that's not what my bible teaches and that's not the truth of G-d's word.

We see the hebrew bible and the gospel as one book, our book. We are not aware of the anger Jews have if we tell them about their bible and what we think it sais. Netanyahu said in a speech to US evangelicals: "Jews are the older brothers of Christians" I think he doesn't really believe it but many Christians see Jews indeed as their older brothers and sisters. We are disturbed when we learn that Jews have a slightly different point of view.

I would try to understand why people believe what they believe and leave it at that.

I have not experienced your reaction yet.

I know the Christian bible says to go out and proselytize, to convert others. But we see what that leads to most of the time.

That's not right. Yes, tell the message and then LEAVE IT AT THAT. We are not called to harass others.

I will say Christianity and other beliefs do have some very positive teachings that help people with their lives, but let that be an individual choice without coercion.

Well said  Smile !
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#25
BlueBird,

"Do Jews who are "in danger" of changing their religion respond well to the (from my perspective) attacks on Christianity?"

Why do you see it as an attack when all we are doing is explaining what is actually written in the Hebrew bible?

I think that all people, not just Jews should be able to have an open mind and study the arguments from both sides.

"We deserve criticism. But it hurts anyway"

I completely understand. It hurts when Jews don't act properly either. It's a bad reflection on us all.

"Maybe "message" is a better word (no one can convert a person). We are called to preach the Gospel. That's not an option but a command."

Well it's a message you are delivering, but the intention is to convert. I understand preaching the Gospel is part of the Christian theology. I'm just saying if it is overdone, which it is in many cases, then it can be taken as offensive.

"We see the hebrew bible and the gospel as one book, our book. We are not aware of the anger Jews have if we tell them about their bible and what we think it sais. Netanyahu said in a speech to US evangelicals: "Jews are the older brothers of Christians" I think he doesn't really believe it but many Christians see Jews indeed as their older brothers and sisters. We are disturbed when we learn that Jews have a slightly different point of view."

I understand you see it all as one book, but from what I observe, it isn't necessarily treated as one. Again, we aren't angry, just defensive as the people the Hebrew bible was given to have a very good understanding of what it says and means.

I don't think you could categorize "Jews" as having a slightly different point of view. I think most Jews think of everyone as our brothers and sisters, all created in G-d's image. We were just given a mission from G-d. There are people in all religions who may inappropriately (in my opinion) dismiss others who don't believe what they do, even within the different denominations of Christianity.

"I have not experienced your reaction yet."

There is a difference between listening to what people believe in and hearing those who say their way is the only way and dismiss everything we refute without even an acknowledgement.

"Yes, tell the message and then LEAVE IT AT THAT. We are not called to harass others."

You should go to Brooklyn sometime and let them know then.


"Well said  [Image: smile.png] !"


Thank you!
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#26
(02-24-2021, 09:33 PM)searchinmyroots Wrote: BlueBird,

"Do Jews who are "in danger" of changing their religion respond well to the (from my perspective) attacks on Christianity?"

Why do you see it as an attack when all we are doing is explaining what is actually written in the Hebrew bible?

I think that all people, not just Jews should be able to have an open mind and study the arguments from both sides.

"We deserve criticism. But it hurts anyway"

I completely understand. It hurts when Jews don't act properly either. It's a bad reflection on us all.

"Maybe "message" is a better word (no one can convert a person). We are called to preach the Gospel. That's not an option but a command."

Well it's a message you are delivering, but the intention is to convert. I understand preaching the Gospel is part of the Christian theology. I'm just saying if it is overdone, which it is in many cases, then it can be taken as offensive.

"We see the hebrew bible and the gospel as one book, our book. We are not aware of the anger Jews have if we tell them about their bible and what we think it sais. Netanyahu said in a speech to US evangelicals: "Jews are the older brothers of Christians" I think he doesn't really believe it but many Christians see Jews indeed as their older brothers and sisters. We are disturbed when we learn that Jews have a slightly different point of view."

I understand you see it all as one book, but from what I observe, it isn't necessarily treated as one. Again, we aren't angry, just defensive as the people the Hebrew bible was given to have a very good understanding of what it says and means.

I don't think you could categorize "Jews" as having a slightly different point of view. I think most Jews think of everyone as our brothers and sisters, all created in G-d's image. We were just given a mission from G-d. There are people in all religions who may inappropriately (in my opinion) dismiss others who don't believe what they do, even within the different denominations of Christianity.

"I have not experienced your reaction yet."

There is a difference between listening what people believe in and hearing those who say their way is the only way and dismiss everything we refute.

"Yes, tell the message and then LEAVE IT AT THAT. We are not called to harass others."

You should go to Brooklyn sometime and let them know then.


"Well said  [Image: smile.png] !"


Thank you!
We, the christians are called to warn the people because is our duty and not to overdo,and force them.if they reject it that is the choice of them.jesus and the apostles never forced people to believe in him as is showed in the new testament.i didn't know that in brooklyn that happens.
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#27
(02-24-2021, 09:48 PM)Ismq Wrote: We, the christians are called to warn the people because is our duty and not to overdo,and force them.if they reject it that is the choice of them.jesus and the apostles never forced people to believe in him as is showed in the new testament.i didn't know that in brooklyn that happens.

I understand it very well as I am surrounded by Christians and know the theology quite well.

It's not only the "overdo" or "force", it's the disguise and manipulation that goes on not only in Brooklyn. I am speaking mostly about the Messianic Christians where some can be very sneaky.

So no, I do not put all Christians in one box and get along with many of them quite well.
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#28
(02-24-2021, 09:54 PM)searchinmyroots Wrote:
(02-24-2021, 09:48 PM)Ismq Wrote: We, the christians are called to warn the people because is our duty and not to overdo,and force them.if they reject it that is the choice of them.jesus and the apostles never forced people to believe in him as is showed in the new testament.i didn't know that in brooklyn that happens.

I understand it very well as I am surrounded by Christians and know the theology quite well.

It's not only the "overdo" or "force", it's the disguise and manipulation that goes on not only in Brooklyn. I am speaking mostly about the Messianic Christians where some can be very sneaky.

So no, I do not put all Christians in one box and get along with many of them quite well.

What do you mean by disguise and manipulation?
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#29
(02-24-2021, 10:01 PM)Ismq Wrote:
(02-24-2021, 09:54 PM)searchinmyroots Wrote:
(02-24-2021, 09:48 PM)Ismq Wrote: We, the christians are called to warn the people because is our duty and not to overdo,and force them.if they reject it that is the choice of them.jesus and the apostles never forced people to believe in him as is showed in the new testament.i didn't know that in brooklyn that happens.

I understand it very well as I am surrounded by Christians and know the theology quite well.

It's not only the "overdo" or "force", it's the disguise and manipulation that goes on not only in Brooklyn. I am speaking mostly about the Messianic Christians where some can be very sneaky.

So no, I do not put all Christians in one box and get along with many of them quite well.

What do you mean by disguise and manipulation?

They dress up as Jewish people and copy many of the cultural and religious practices and then invite unknowing Jewish people to their "meetings" not explaining or disguising what it is about. They won't use the word Jesus and have a whole booklet written on how to convert Jews without saying they are Christians.
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#30
(02-24-2021, 10:29 PM)searchinmyroots Wrote:
(02-24-2021, 10:01 PM)Ismq Wrote:
(02-24-2021, 09:54 PM)searchinmyroots Wrote:
(02-24-2021, 09:48 PM)Ismq Wrote: We, the christians are called to warn the people because is our duty and not to overdo,and force them.if they reject it that is the choice of them.jesus and the apostles never forced people to believe in him as is showed in the new testament.i didn't know that in brooklyn that happens.

I understand it very well as I am surrounded by Christians and know the theology quite well.

It's not only the "overdo" or "force", it's the disguise and manipulation that goes on not only in Brooklyn. I am speaking mostly about the Messianic Christians where some can be very sneaky.

So no, I do not put all Christians in one box and get along with many of them quite well.

What do you mean by disguise and manipulation?

They dress up as Jewish people and copy many of the cultural and religious practices and then invite unknowing Jewish people to their "meetings" not explaining or disguising what it is about. They won't use the word Jesus and have a whole booklet written on how to convert Jews without saying they are Christians.
Wow..that's too bad.i have never heard that.
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